From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V99 #331 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume99/331 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 331 Today's Topics: Re: [B7L] Re: Punishment for Desertion Re: [B7L] Re: Avon [B7L] Re: Avon [B7L] Re: punishment Re: [B7L] Re: Avon Re: [B7L] Re: Avon Re: [B7L] Re: Avon Re: [B7L] Re: Avon [B7L] You know you've seen too much B7 when... Re: [B7L] You know you've seen too much B7 when... Re: [B7L] Re: Avon Re: [B7L] Re: Avon Re: [B7L] Odd thought re: Avon Re: [B7L] Re:Avon Re: [B7L] Odd thought re: Avon [B7L] Observer ad Re: [B7L] Re: Avon [B7L] Heartbeat [B7L] Re: Avon:ATA [B7L] Re: Avon [B7L] Re: Punishment for Desertion Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #328 [B7L] Re: Avon:ATA RE: [B7L] Odd thought re: Avon Re: [B7L] Re: Avon Re: [B7L] Odd thought re: Avon Re: [B7L] Re: punishment RE: [B7L] Re:crime and punishment RE: [B7L] Odd thought re: Avon Re: [B7L] You know you've seen too much B7 when... Re: [B7L] Re: Avon RE: [B7L] Odd thought re: Avon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 22:16:44 -0000 From: "Andrew Ellis" To: "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Punishment for Desertion Message-ID: <006b01bf3925$8661e900$a5658cd4@leanet.futures.bt.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alison.... >So, Blake would ..... be justified in destroying star one .....in order to wreck the federation and liberate people from being drugged and enslaved. Provided HE believed that they WERE drugged and enslaved. Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 21:54:59 -0000 From: "Andrew Ellis" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Avon Message-ID: <006901bf3925$809e62a0$a5658cd4@leanet.futures.bt.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Ellynne G. >Skipping over how _quickly_ Avon became such a good shot, there's the odd >bit where he realizes Dorian has listed to many accomplishments for a man >his age, despite evidence right in front of him that Dorian _has_ done >these things. > >Gee, talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Think he knew the type >from experience? Dorian was working, as far as first impressions go, ALONE. Avon was working on a BIG project in a multi disciplinary team, and was well educated. Avon was perhaps a pivotal figure in one of the groups working on the big project. This explains his breadth quite adequately. It also makes him well placed to know the value of team work between specialists within his team and others, especially in research, and to understand the impact on the timescales on a project of working without this support group. Avon is thus well placed to make the observaation about Dorian. The point would have been, "He can't have done this in that time alone, either something funny is going on, or he is NOT working alone." > >While I'm at it, it's been a while since I've seen the episode, but did >Avon first claim he knew about the material in the bracelet and the >theory on which it was based and _then_ find out Blake worked on it too? >Large project or not, it seems strange they hadn't met before _if_ Avon >was telling the truth--something he's _so_ well known for. > You are quite simply wrong. It is perfectly possible for people working on the same project never to have met, even if they have used the results of each others work. This is especially true for large projects. Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 22:21:45 -0700 From: Helen Krummenacker To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: Avon Message-ID: <3840BBE9.131E@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > While I'm at it, it's been a while since I've seen the episode, but did > Avon first claim he knew about the material in the bracelet and the > theory on which it was based and _then_ find out Blake worked on it too? > Large project or not, it seems strange they hadn't met before _if_ Avon > was telling the truth--something he's _so_ well known for. > > Ellynne > Or, as I pointed out, they may not *remember* having met... it's an interesting thought at any rate. As I understand it, Blake's memories never *fully* were straightened out, and Kerr might never have been important enough for him to remember in the early days of the Freedom Party. Avon may not be political, but he always did like freedom, and if they ever did work together, Avon would likely have asked Blake what he thought he could accomplish, etc. And later gotten a few memories of his own blocked as a direct result. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 22:31:07 -0700 From: Helen Krummenacker To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: punishment Message-ID: <3840BE1B.4FA7@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > He re-offended again. Eventually, > when the Federations best had failed to permanently adjust his mind (quick > aside to another thread, the Federation's mind control is not very good) I totally disagree that Vila's immunity means the Federation's mind-messing doesn't work well. Vila seemed clearly the exception to the rule. Perhaps his body chemistry adapts to whatever drugs he's given. Perhaps he is hard-wired a little differently than most brains. (In a fan-fic I was working on, a freedom-loving doctor had 'immunized' him from the mind-drugs when he was a lad, as a trial-run on his process. The doctor treated his own daughter as well, who grew up to become Avalon.) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 00:41:42 -0000 From: "Kayleigh Z Banks" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Avon Message-ID: <000201bf3963$167560c0$02000003@fred> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, I'm fairly new here but I've been following this discussion for a few days and thought I'd add my opinions. Avon's 'I was aiming for his head.' :- he suffering from radiation sickness at the time so surely his aim would be a little off. :-) As for the theories about his possible past as a federation agent, political enemy etc. has anyone ever read 'Avon - A Terrible Aspect' by the man himself, Paul Darrow? It tells the story of his past from before his conception up to his boarding of the prison ship. Although it has a few tiny plot gaps (only big enough to drive an elephant through) it does offer explanations for some of the points raised, including why he's such a good shot and the relationship between him and Anna Grant. I hope someone else has heard of this book as I've never heard anyone else mention it before and I know I'm not imagining it - I have a copy! Sorry if I've rambled it bit too much. Kayleigh ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 00:19:12 PST From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Avon Message-ID: <19991128081912.16977.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Ellyne wrote: As Blake says 'big project'. I work for a university, and there are literally hundreds of co-workers I wouldn't recognise if I fell over them. There's no reason why their paths should intersect. And Avon - being essentially uninterested in other people unless they impact *directly* on his lfe, would hardly take much time to even register the existence of the many many people outside his own area of the project. After all, Blake doesn't appear to remember Avon either - yes, there's the memory wipe, but he *does* recall the project, so presumably he recalls those people he actually worked with *on* the project. Blake's statement only makes Avon pause for a moment - sort of a minor mental hiccup, quite normal for such a coincidence - then he's happily back to the lecture (My Darling does love giving others the benefit of his knowledge :-) doesn't he?) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 00:25:48 PST From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Avon Message-ID: <19991128082548.99314.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Avona wrote: I agree they're evidence that he's a good shot. Shooting Travis' hand in Orac...my theory has always been that (given that, with radiation sickness, he probably could neither think nor see all *that* straight) he just shot at the dark shape in front of him and hoped to God he hit *any* part of Travis. He was not aiming for the head *or* the hand, but was hardly going to admit it in front of Travis & Servie when he was the only one holding a gun at all (hence the crack about aiming for the head). ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 01:17:12 PST From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Avon Message-ID: <19991128091712.35862.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Avon wrote: Ummm...well, my own firmly held opinion (FWIW) is that Avon is about as interested in politics as he would be in watching paint dry (possibly less) and only made himself politically aware *after* unfortunate events (getting hoiked onto the most-wanted list by the curly-haired revolutionary in charge of the dream ship) made it painfully necessary to his (and the revolutionary's) health and well-being. Yes, he is all for freedom - for himself and the few people he cares about, but absolutely no one else. I don't see any evidence that this would extend to the slightest interest in freedom for the hoi polloi, Blake's 'rabble' (or the non-rabble for that matter). Or the political realities of getting, giving and keeping that freedom. I doubt it - in fact, I think he'd find the whole subject painfully boring. In the scene in Spacefall, Avon seems far less interested in what Blake is actually propounding than in Blake's *own* clear, blazing belief in it (and what that is going to mean for Avon personally). I can see him taking pains to avoid any on-going political discussions on the Liberator ("tell me how you want me to Fight for Freedom, Blake - just stop telling me *why*!!!") ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 10:20:21 +0100 From: Jacqueline Thijsen To: Lysator Subject: [B7L] You know you've seen too much B7 when... Message-ID: <39DCDDFD014ED21185C300104BB3F99F95B48B@NL-ARN-MAIL01> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Britney Spears sings 'Baby one more time' on MTV and you hear her singing 'Oh Bayban, baby'. Jacqueline ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 10:27:57 -0000 From: "Una McCormack" To: "Lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] You know you've seen too much B7 when... Message-ID: <052501bf398e$3a766480$0d01a8c0@hedge> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jacqueline wrote: > Britney Spears sings 'Baby one more time' on MTV and you hear her singing > 'Oh Bayban, baby'. Oh, excellent! Una ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 10:48:27 -0000 From: "Una McCormack" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Avon Message-ID: <052701bf398e$3b8def00$0d01a8c0@hedge> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kayleigh wrote: > Hello, I'm fairly new here but I've been following this discussion for a few > days and thought I'd add my opinions. Hi there > Avon's 'I was aiming for his head.' :- he suffering from radiation > sickness at the time so surely his aim would be a little off. :-) I reckoned that Avon always was a pretty poor shot (yes, I know he shot the guy selling the visas, but he got shot himself as well), and had spent most of that first season just waving guns around hoping that would be enough to put people off, whilst trying to get some target practice in. So that line was partly self-deprecating: he'd not shot what he was aiming for, but it was enough to get them out of the fine mess that they were in. By the time of 'Horizon' he's a lot better because he's had the practice. It strikes me as a very Avon-ish thing for him to be sitting on the Liberator sometime around the end of 'Space Fall', thinking, 'I'm stuck with this. And I'm going to get shot at. I'd really better learn how to use a gun - incredibly well.' And then go all out to be good with a gun. > As for the theories about his possible past as a federation agent, political > enemy etc. has anyone ever read 'Avon - A Terrible Aspect' by the man > himself, Paul Darrow? Yes, I've read it. It exists, I assure you, and is not just a figment of your imagination. Una ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 18:04:36 +1100 From: Kathryn Andersen To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Avon Message-ID: <19991128180436.A2792@welkin.apana.org.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Welcome, Kayleigh! Join the intellectual skirmish! On Sun, Nov 28, 1999 at 12:41:42AM -0000, Kayleigh Z Banks wrote: > As for the theories about his possible past as a federation agent, political > enemy etc. has anyone ever read 'Avon - A Terrible Aspect' by the man > himself, Paul Darrow? (Kathryn suppresses a smile) Yes, this book is very well known, and generally ignored. There was a wandering copy of it being passed amongst Lyst members, for the main purpose of being able to give people the hard data, so that they could actually know "yes, it *is* that bad". > It tells the story of his past from before his > conception up to his boarding of the prison ship. Although it has a few tiny > plot gaps (only big enough to drive an elephant through) it does offer > explanations for some of the points raised, including why he's such a good > shot and the relationship between him and Anna Grant. As I said, the stuff in this book is generally dismissed by fans as being completely inconsistent with canon. Avon changed over the course of the series, yet the Avon in "A Terrible Aspect" is behaving more like 4th-season Avon than 1st-season Avon, inasmuch as he is behaving like Avon at all. Just because Paul Darrow wrote it, doesn't mean that it is gospel. I figure that the Avon in Paul Darrow's mind is *not* the Avon we saw on the screen, because Paul's vision also had to interact with other people's visions, and what we saw was the synergy of them all. Kathryn Andersen -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Avon: Servalan was planning on sending you a corpse. Vila (handing Avon a drink): Corpse revival? Avon: But the rumours of my death - Tarrant: Have been greatly exaggerated. Avon: Well, slightly exaggerated, anyway. (Blake's 7: Rumours of Death [C8]) -- _--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen / \ | http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat \_.--.*/ | #include "standard/disclaimer.h" v | ------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 18:13:06 -0000 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Odd thought re: Avon Message-ID: <000401bf39b8$15362960$ec458cd4@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Louise wrote: >In SpaceFall, Avon was, frankly, a crap fighter. He makes a really messy >job out of dealing with the computer guy, and doesn't even think about the >possibility of him waking up again. I thought it was quite a well-filmed little scrap, regardless of the tactics either party deployed. Far better than all that ballet crap in Traitor, anyway. Neil ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 18:55:42 -0000 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Re:Avon Message-ID: <000601bf39b8$193da7e0$ec458cd4@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Helen wrote: >I haven't watched that many recently, but he shot several people dead in >close succession in Horizon. I believe (I'm not sure) he got off a >lethal shot while sliding though a closing door in one episode... a very >tricky thing to do. I realize I'm not giving a lot of examples, can >someone who's not suffering from dizzy spells and headaches come to my >aid on this? I'm afraid that all sounds like Squirble's Law to me. Uncredited extras automatically drop dead on being shot, or they get missed - there is no inbetween state (conveniently freeing the script from both the practical and ethical baggage that wounded casualties would impose). Guest actors (credited) can survive being shot if it will help stretch the episode out to the required fifty minutes. Regulars can pull off any kind of stunt shot with complete confidence, unless their ensuing failure is crucial to the workings of the plot or their fallibility needs to be demonstrated (eg, for comic relief). Helen later added: >Yes! Shooting those tiny cameras made one >*heck* of an impression on me the first time I saw Horizon. Far more of an impression than: VHWWAAAPP ''Oh bugger!'' VHWAAPP ''Shit, missed -again-!'' VVHHHWWAAAAPPPP ''Gotcha, you sonofa-'' Neil ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 18:34:26 -0000 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Odd thought re: Avon Message-ID: <000501bf39b8$17b3faa0$ec458cd4@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jacqueline wrote: >After all, hitting the hand when he was aiming for the head >would have been an incredible coincidence, especially since the hand was a >much smaller target. I've always been led to understand that in real life, if you have to use a gun, you can't do anything more than shoot to hit. Insofar as you aim at any particular part of the target, you go for the torso, since this represents the largest target area (as well as containing all the vital organs). Head shots, or hand shots, are generally out, since the chance of missing is way too high. Whether or not the target survives being hit is largely a matter of chance and what kind of ammo you're using. (Modern assault rifles are designed with deliberate low lethality in mind, since a wounded man needs to be medivacced out of the combat zone, tying up three or four other enemy soldiers, whilst a corpse can be left just lying there.) Sure, a sniper, with time to aim and sighting equipment installed on his/er weapon, can be a bit more choosy, but in the kind of skirmish fighting we get in B7, it's more a case of taking out the other guy before he does the same to you. Even at point-blank range, speed and reaction time are at least as important as accuracy. Not that I've had any personal first-hand combat experience, but I've heard and read a fair bit from those that have. Neil ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 15:53:23 +0000 From: Steve Rogerson To: Lysator Subject: [B7L] Observer ad Message-ID: <38414FF3.B53E46E1@mcr1.poptel.org.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Has anyone seen that ad for The Observer that's being shown at UK cinemas? Well, next time watch closely cos when the main guy is on the plane to the US, the guy sitting next to him is Michael Keating. -- cheers Steve Rogerson http://homepages.poptel.org.uk/steve.rogerson "In my world, there are people in chains and you can ride them like ponies" The alternative Willow, Buffy the Vampire Slayer ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 15:53:20 +0000 From: Julia Jones To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Avon Message-ID: In message <052701bf398e$3b8def00$0d01a8c0@hedge>, Una McCormack writes >> As for the theories about his possible past as a federation agent, >political >> enemy etc. has anyone ever read 'Avon - A Terrible Aspect' by the man >> himself, Paul Darrow? > > Yes, I've read it. It exists, I assure you, and is not just a >figment of your imagination. > Unfortunately:-) Never mind the plot holes, us physicists had other reasons to wince all the way through that book... -- Julia Jones "Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!" The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 15:59:11 +0000 (GMT) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: [B7L] Heartbeat Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Remember - Gareth's in Heartbeat tonight. Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.nas.com/~lknight ) Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 16:54:25 -0000 From: Louise Rutter To: "'B7 Lysator'" Subject: [B7L] Re: Avon:ATA Message-ID: <01BF39C1.54AC1BA0@host62-6-28-104.btinternet.com> I read ATA once. The science was absolutely appalling, the plot was dire - did anyone recognise a junkie in the Anna Grant we saw on screen? And the character called Avon bore little resemblance to the man who appeared in SpaceFall. It doesn't get discussed often on the list, Kayleigh, because the consensus of opinion agrees with the above :-) Louise ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 09:54:48 -0700 From: "Ellynne G." To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: Avon Message-ID: <19991128.095528.10014.3.Rilliara@juno.com> OK, I was working on a Buffy the Vampire Slayer-B7 crossover, and it made me start viewing anything strange in a different light. In Buffy-land, the simple fact Avon had brought up the time/life span factor instead of the working alone element made his insight suspicious. Plus, there's the fact that weird basements where strange things happen mean only one thing in Sunnydale. Ellynne ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 09:51:40 -0700 From: "Ellynne G." To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: Punishment for Desertion Message-ID: <19991128.095528.10014.2.Rilliara@juno.com> On Sat, 27 Nov 1999 13:58:34 -0000 "Alison Page" writes: >Ming said - > >I liked Ellyne's post too, but perhaps it is too kind to the >Federation? > >As I understand it Ellyne is saying that punishment >within the Federation seems to be based on the principle of rational >deterrence. So, they are prepared to be as cruel as necessary - but >with >that very important proviso: 'as necessary' - that is the cruelty is >justified as a means to an end. In fact as the only means to the end >of >maintaining civilisation throughout the galaxy. > >However I think this a spurious whitewash that all fascist and >authoritarian >states put onto their actions. Uh-oh, let me clarify if I can. The Federation has certain elements of the rational behind their justice system. However, rational and right are not the same thing. Ask someone who, for example, has been in an abusive relationship. The behavior may often be irrational (punishing the victim for things they had no control over) but it has a rational basis (controling the victim and erroding any kind of self-confidence). This, on the other hand, is definitly evil. The Federation's punishment of family may have a rational basis (discouraging desertion) but it is not just or right. 1) It punishes people for events they may have had no control over (see the abuse reference above) 2) By being left behind, the evidence suggests the family's _innocence_, again attacking any claims of justice 3) As a deserted spouse, the abandoned wife has been wronged at least as much as anyone else and cannot be assumed to have remaining loyalties to her husband, 4) They system punishes children who could easily be too young to have had any part in events. In short, the Federation delibrately attacks the innocent either as retaliation or as deterrance. The clan-tribe question was a side issue because, despite comments about connections and the implication that family standing is important to getting ahead, there's no indication the Federation has either an extensive clan-tribe structure or that family loyalty is the primary loyalty, making them more a system of united mini-states than a single state with an underlying clan structure. _IF_ they had been, _THEN_ an individual's desertion might raise questions about his whole family/clan/tribe's loyalty, the same as one nation discovering an ally's citizen had been spying on them and selling state secrets might sour relations between them. HOWEVER, even if such a system had been in place, the deserter's clan should still have had some right to prove their loyalty (disowning the clan member, etc) to prove he acted as an individual, not as their representative. Also, there's still the question of what makes a JUST punishment. Selling the family into slavery doesn't seem to rise to that level. Finally, still going with the clan thing, there's the question of whether a deserted wife still qualifies as a member of her husband's clan. There are several cultures where, even when a woman normally has very limited rights to divorce, this would give her an automatic "Get out of the family tree free" card. So, even in a clan system, punishing her and her children is still questionable. >Oops - just thought what this might sound like. I'm not calling you a >fascist Ellyne, I just mean that I think you are over-estimating how >rational the Federation is. Hope that's clear. > I probably am. I have a tendency to try to reduce things to some kind of rational logic when I often should just give up and say, "They were evil, OK?" Although, on the other hand, I am driven nuts by certain writers (mostly nonB7) who never consider the rational basis of the societies they make up (which means a friend loaned me another one of those stories where the author can't draw a line between mortality rates, birth rates, and population growth. _Two_ children is a replacement rate only if _everyone_ has children and there is no significant death rate before childbearing years. Is that so difficult to figure out? Gripe, grumble). Oh, well. I'm going off into side issues once again. Ellynne ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 17:13:25 +0000 From: roddy wraith To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se CC: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #328 Message-ID: <384162B5.3EE1893E@diamond.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DO NOT SEND ANY MORE MAIL..OR I WILL CONTACT MY NETWORK SUPPLYER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 19:43:53 -0000 From: "Kayleigh Z Banks" To: Subject: [B7L] Re: Avon:ATA Message-ID: <005701bf39d8$ec555e00$02000003@fred> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oops, I'll just take my foot out my mouth then. Sorry if I've mentioned an 'unmentionable'. I have to admit it has been a few years since I last read my copy and I do tend to remember anything to do with Avon with rose-tinted specs - he's my absolute favourite character. :-) On that theme, his inability to deal decisively with the computer guy on the prison ship, I've always attributed to the fact that all the prisoners were treated with suppressants, so he was probably not as alert as he could have been. (As I said, I'll forgive him just about anything!) I think we'd all secretly like to be like Avon, after all, wouldn't we just love to be as rude as he is and get away with it? As for his pessimism, it does have its compensations - as the saying goes 's**t happens' and when it does at least the pessimists have the satisfaction of knowing they were right! The optimists just get more disappointment. I'm a pessimist - I have a tumble dryer! Kayleigh PS Neil's comments on a more realistic Horizon scene made me scream with laughter. I can just see Avon saying all of that (as long as there were no witnesses, otherwise he'd be cool as cucumber). ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 20:55:10 +0100 From: Jacqueline Thijsen To: Lysator Subject: RE: [B7L] Odd thought re: Avon Message-ID: <39DCDDFD014ED21185C300104BB3F99F95B4D0@NL-ARN-MAIL01> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Neil wrote: > > Jacqueline wrote: > >After all, hitting the hand when he was aiming for the head > >would have been an incredible coincidence, especially since > >the hand was a much smaller target. > > I've always been led to understand that in real life, if you > have to use a > gun, you can't do anything more than shoot to hit. Insofar > as you aim at > any particular part of the target, you go for the torso, since this > represents the largest target area (as well as containing all > the vital organs). I've heard this, too, but I believe this is because of the recoil. The gun Avon was using worked with photons or rays or something equally SF-ish and was therefore recoilless, and might well have some kind of feedback that makes you 'feel' the texture of what you're aiming at. They already do this for computer extensions such as the mouse, so it's not so strange to expect something similar to be developed for weapons. That would explain Avon's steep learning curve when it came to shooting: he'd have to get used to how the feedback related to the real world, but once he had developed a feel for that, hitting a target, no matter how small, would have become child's play. Jacqueline ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 15:44:40 -0500 From: Meredith Dixon To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Avon Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I think we'd all secretly like to be like Avon, after all, wouldn't we just >love to be as rude as he is and get away with it? I wouldn't. If I had to choose, I'd much rather be like Blake. -- Meredith Dixon Check out *Raven Days*, for victims and survivors of bullying. And for those who want to help. http://web.mountain.net/~dixonm/raven.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 21:00:07 -0000 From: "Andrew Ellis" To: "Lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Odd thought re: Avon Message-ID: <008c01bf39e3$b2979060$503163c3@leanet.futures.bt.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Jacqueline Thijsen >The gun >Avon was using worked with photons or rays or something equally SF-ish and >was therefore recoilless, Well actually........ Think about it, conservation of momentum and all that. I know all Sci-Fi does it but if you want a scientific explanation then it MUST be Squirbles law again. The photon momentum exchange between the gun and the beam is converted into a temporary aim enhancement field via a super light speed particulate exchange at TD 205.3. Doesn't work for Federation guns, because they are classic projectile type weopons and work as follows (perhaps, I just made this up). Generate a plasma and place it inside a containment field. Apply a force to acceperate the containment field (and suffer recoil only from the total mass of the matter propelled forwards). Large amount of energy (far exceeding the Kenetic energy of the containment field experienced as recoil) is released when the containment field breaks down on impact with a target and the plasma explodes. (Translation - replace plasma with gunpowder / shrapnel mix, containment field with metal shell, and energy release with explosion) >and might well have some kind of feedback that >makes you 'feel' the texture of what you're aiming at. Didn't Dayna "invent" one of those, or do you see Dayna's invention as something more ? Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 20:29:47 -0000 From: "Andrew Ellis" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: punishment Message-ID: <008a01bf39e3$adbf0640$503163c3@leanet.futures.bt.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Me ... >> He re-offended again. Eventually, >> when the Federations best had failed to permanently adjust his mind (quick >> aside to another thread, the Federation's mind control is not very good) > Helen.... >I totally disagree that Vila's immunity means the Federation's >mind-messing doesn't work well. Vila seemed clearly the exception to the >rule. Perhaps his body chemistry adapts to whatever drugs he's given. >Perhaps he is hard-wired a little differently than most brains. >(In a fan-fic I was working on, a freedom-loving doctor had 'immunized' >him from the mind-drugs when he was a lad, as a trial-run on his >process. The doctor treated his own daughter as well, who grew up to >become Avalon.) > > Avalon of course was blissfully unaware of this, because she believed that the Federation could extract all of her secrets. And the father dies soon after, because the "vaccine" was never supplied to the Freedom party. Would anybody care to list pre galactic war evidence of the Federation's mind control exploits ? Blake, the Children, and .... I agree that Vila COULD have been an exceptional case, but not that it's clearly so. The existence of special cases, even when "the best" are applying the process suggests that the process has not been fully optimised, IMHO. Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 09:07:24 EST From: "Joanne MacQueen" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: RE: [B7L] Re:crime and punishment Message-ID: <19991128220724.85489.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >From: Jacqueline Thijsen >To drag this posting kicking and screaming back on topic: I wonder how a >certain snarly Liberator crewmember would react to being told to forgive >his >enemies. I think he would be quite willing to forgive his enemies. Right >after he'd killed them. Or at least after he'd given them permanent brain damage by thumping them over the head with one of those overgrown family bible things. The Word of God as a really dangerous, physical thing, hmmm... Regards Joanne ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 23:09:00 +0100 From: Jacqueline Thijsen To: Lysator Subject: RE: [B7L] Odd thought re: Avon Message-ID: <39DCDDFD014ED21185C300104BB3F99F95B4E7@NL-ARN-MAIL01> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Susan Beth wrote: >Jacqueline Thijsen wrote: > >That would explain Avon's > >steep learning curve when it came to shooting: he'd have to get used to how > >the feedback related to the real world, but once he had developed a feel for > >that, hitting a target, no matter how small, would have become child's play. > > It's a nice, skiffy, in-universe explanation....but if so, why are the Fed > troopers such awful shots? Don't they get the neato feedback > system, too? Nope, the neato feedback system came with the neato System ship, aka the Liberator. BTW, you sent your answer to me, instead of the lyst. Hope you don't mind that I sent the answer to the lyst. Jacqueline ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 09:09:57 EST From: "Joanne MacQueen" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] You know you've seen too much B7 when... Message-ID: <19991128220957.82454.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >From: Jacqueline Thijsen >Britney Spears sings 'Baby one more time' on MTV and you hear her singing >'Oh Bayban, baby'. Oh, poor Jacqueline! Here you go Regards Joanne ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 09:12:42 EST From: "Joanne MacQueen" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Avon Message-ID: <19991128221242.99042.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >From: "Una McCormack" > Yes, I've read it. It exists, I assure you, and is not just a >figment of your imagination. What does it rate on the "snow tiger" scale, so to speak? Regards Joanne (having read Aftermath, but not Avon: a terrible novel (or whatever you wish to call it...)) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 23:25:52 +0100 From: Jacqueline Thijsen To: Lysator Subject: RE: [B7L] Odd thought re: Avon Message-ID: <39DCDDFD014ED21185C300104BB3F99F95B4E8@NL-ARN-MAIL01> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Andrew wrote: > > From: Jacqueline Thijsen > > >The gun > >Avon was using worked with photons or rays or something > >equally SF-ish and was therefore recoilless, > > Well actually........ Think about it, conservation of > momentum and all that. Thought about it..... I don't recall ever feeling a recoil when I switched on a flashlight, which sends out quite a few photons. To the best of my knowledge, the same thing goes for a laser. Whenever a Liberator gun was fired, the only visible effect was a glowing tip on the gun and an explosion in the target, which could well be the result of a small area of that target suddenly becoming extremely hot. (Well, I think so, anyway. Could the people who actually know something about physics help out here?) Whenever a Federation weapon was fired, it looked like some kind of explosion came out of it. So your explanation makes perfect sense to me, especially since the big guns mounted on ships also used plasma bolts which exploded on impact or after having travelled a certain distance. The extra's 'firing' the Federation guns usually acted as if there was a recoil. I don't recall ever seeing that when a Liberator gun was used. > >and might well have some kind of feedback that > >makes you 'feel' the texture of what you're aiming at. > > Didn't Dayna "invent" one of those, or do you see Dayna's invention as > something more ? No, I just didn't remember Dayna's invention. Sorry, it's been a while since I had time to watch even my new video's, let alone the old ones. I still have to watch video's 24 and 25. In which episode did Dayna invent this weapon? Jacqueline -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #331 **************************************