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blakes7-d Digest				Volume 99 : Issue 317

Today's Topics:
	 Re: [B7L] Re: Why Dystopia?
	 [B7L] Re: Why Dystopia?
	 [B7L] squash ladder
	 [B7L] Re: The Quibell Abduction
	 Re: [B7L] squash ladder
	 Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #315
	 [B7L] Re: Why Dystopia?
	 Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #315
	 Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #315
	 Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #315
	 [B7L] Harry Potter
	 Re: [B7L] Re: Why Dystopia?
	 Re: [B7L] Mornington Crescent
	 Re [B7L] Whence Herculanium?
	 Re: [B7L] Cally's conscience
	 Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #315
	 Re: [B7L] Harry Potter
	 Re: [B7L] Mornington Crescent
	 Re: [B7L] Re: Why Dystopia?
	 Re: Re [B7L] Whence Herculanium?
	 [B7L] Re: Why Dystopia?
	 Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #315
	 Re: Re [B7L] Whence Herculanium?
	 [B7L] The Women (was Re: Why Dystopia?)
	 Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #315
	 Re: [B7L] Re: Why Dystopia?
	 RE: Re [B7L] Whence Herculanium?
	 RE: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #315
	 Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #315
	 Re: [B7L] Re: Why Dystopia?
	 Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #315
	 [B7L] Re: Whence Herculanium?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 08:54:16 GMT
From: predx@rbaf.demon.co.uk (Predatrix)
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Why Dystopia?
Message-ID: <382f7a4a.641252004@post.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

>Moreover, lazy I can far more easily identify with Blake's ditzy
>fanaticism, Avon's perpetual PMS, Vila's polymorphously addictive
>personality, etc. than with all Starfleet's overachieving best and
>brightest. That degree of efficiently adjusted cool competence makes me
>tired just watching it. 

<howl!> I love this para & want to pin it up somewhere. Cannot help
noticing you haven't put any comments on the women--come on, lazy or
not, how wd you encapsulate them?

Cheers (...I just posted to the Clean Lyst. <wobble>...) Pred'x

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 03:16:51 PST
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: Why Dystopia?
Message-ID: <19991111111652.661.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

<Why do *I* prefer B7's dystopianism to Star Trek's sickmaking
optimism?>

Actually, I don't really go for dystopias...except for B7. I
usually prefer something muddledy in-the-middle and ambiguous,
a mixture of better and worse, sense and nonsense - but we get precious 
little of that on TV (or in books, for that matter),
because it's so much harder to do. I've found most dystopias as lacking in 
subtlety (or
believability) as utopias.

<Moreover, lazy I can far more easily identify with Blake's
ditzy fanaticism, Avon's perpetual PMS, Vila's polymorphously addictive 
personality, etc. than with all Starfleet's
overachieving best and brightest. That degree of efficiently
adjusted cool competence makes me tired just watching it.>

And makes my teeth ache (give me two days on Picard's Enterprise
and I would be trying to kneecap the lot of them. With a meat-
axe.) One of the reasons I love Horizon is that they're *all*
(except Gan) behaving so badly under stress (watching The Hero suffering in 
stoic silence may be noble and all that, watching
Avon do it in stoic snarliness is much more fun).

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 03:18:45 PST
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] squash ladder
Message-ID: <19991111111845.43254.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

After I wrote about Shadow: <And I'll even point out that it's
way way better than most of the other episodes, and *better* than
just about everything except 'Blake'. (And far more fun to watch
than that one. 'Blake' is great, but not fun).>

Mistral wrote: <Ooh, well then, we'll have something to argue
about when we get that far. <g> Blake has a terrific *impact*,
but impact alone does not a better episode make.>

Possibly not so much arguing, Mistral, as one of my patented
displays of dithering. I do really believe that Blake should get
the top spot, even with its faults...but I do love Shadow more.
It's is one of my four absolute favourite episodes (Pressure
Point, Redemption and Star One being the others) and would
probably get top spot in my heart.

So I probably couldn't vote for one over the other...

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 15:39:22 +0000
From: Julia Jones <julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: The Quibell Abduction
Message-ID: <Cl4jyOAqMuK4Ewr9@jajones.demon.co.uk>

Oh my aching head. I don't drink, so why do cons give me a hangover? And
what time is it? What a lot of posts to read <wibble>

In message <199911050615.GAA29721@rock103.genie.net>,
s.thompson8@genie.com writes
>This is excellent!  I hunted literally for years to find a copy of the now-
>scarce first edition, so I'm thrilled that Judith has reprinted it.  Highly
>recommended.  

Seconded. Cally the Auron warrior, the woman who kicked Blake in the
face when they first met. And real sf, too. My kind of story. 
-- 
Julia Jones
"Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!"
        The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 15:40:59 +0000
From: Julia Jones <julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] squash ladder
Message-ID: <H1gi2QALOuK4EwqV@jajones.demon.co.uk>

In message <Pine.OSF.3.96.991105102903.2379A-100000@bsauasc>, Iain
Coleman <ijc@bsfiles.nerc-bas.ac.uk> writes
>
>On the other hand, "Duel" has some great nipple shots. It probably has
>some other stuff as well, but somehow I always fail to notice.
>
Quote from the lunch time video watching group:
"That woman has no underwear on!"
-- 
Julia Jones
"Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!"
        The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 22:43:21 +1100
From: Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #315
Message-ID: <19991111224320.A11382@welkin.apana.org.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 08:38:26PM -0700, Helen Krummenacker wrote:
> I assume everyone has read "Those Who Walk Away from Omelas", which gave

Ulp - no.  Who wrote it?  When?  I've never heard of it.

> us the fascinating situation of a utopia based on a single evil...

Of course now you've spoiled it, is there any point in reading it?

> perhaps  utopian societies don't go down well is that we all have enough
> suspicion to say 'there must be a catch, somewhere'.

IMHO, Utopias never convince me, because fallen human nature is
guaranteed to screw things up somewhere.

Which is why I like the theory that everyone in TNG Starfleet has
actually been treated with Pylene 50.  It's the only thing that can
make sense of their nauseating niceness.

-- 
 _--_|\	    | Kathryn Andersen		<kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
/      \    | 		http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat
\_.--.*/    | #include "standard/disclaimer.h"
      v	    |
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha!  |	-> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 08:31:01 PST
From: "Hellen Paskaleva" <hellen_pas@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: Why Dystopia?
Message-ID: <19991111163101.93604.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

We happened to divert the topic a bit - from Neil's "why distopia, 
generally", to the more narrow point "why people prefer distopic films like 
B7 over, say, ST". And I gave it a considerable thought, because, on the one 
hand, I do not like the distopia in general, but, on the other - B7 happen 
to be my The All Time Favorite.

Happy-ending stories are something beautiful, because they show us how to 
deal with the problems, when they occur, hoe to make our moral choice, but 
they are faceless, as well. There is no room for us, in there. For sample, 
in Star Trek it is almost impossible to _improve_ the things. My presence 
there (or whoever's presence) only could impede the crew of it's duty. We 
are just viewers, we do not,... to say, we _could not_ take part in whatever 
happens on the screen.

On the other way around - distopia supposes personal involvement. Myself, I 
feel very often a desperate urge to climb into the show, saying things as 
"Hey, guys, where we forgot Cally?", "Hmm, it is actually _unlike_ the main 
control centre to be on Earth...", "Look! Zen is clever enough to 
re-calculate the course, we do not need to go straight through that pinky 
nebula.", "Low gun, you f***** b******!! First think, then shoot - Arlen is 
the traitor!!" or even simply "Watchit! Behind you!"

We are searching the moral choice together with the heroes (we still haven't 
find it, though), we could be _significantly_ helpful, we feel ourselves 
_involved_. (Raise your hands who didn't feel so.) That's why B7 is better, 
not simply because it's distopia and we happened to prefer dark colours.

Just thoughts,
Hellen

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: 11 Nov 1999 18:20:22 +0100
From: Calle Dybedahl <calle@lysator.liu.se>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #315
Message-ID: <us4set54ix.fsf@sture.lysator.liu.se>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

>>>>> "Kathryn" == Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au> writes:

> Ulp - no.  Who wrote it?  When?  I've never heard of it.

"Those Who Walk Away from Omelas" is a short story by Ursula K.
LeGuin. I think it's included in the collection "The Wind's Twelve
Quarters". You can probably find it elsewhere as well.

> Of course now you've spoiled it, is there any point in reading it?

No, it's not spoiled. Yes, there is a point in reading it.

> Which is why I like the theory that everyone in TNG Starfleet has
> actually been treated with Pylene 50.  It's the only thing that can
> make sense of their nauseating niceness.

I like the theory that all the Trek shows are really propaganda
broadcasts by the Federation's Ministry of Truth. 
-- 
 Calle Dybedahl, Vasav. 82, S-177 52 Jaerfaella,SWEDEN | calle@lysator.liu.se
    "...a festering realization that all you do is no more than the futile
      slapping of paint onto the rotting, decayed infrastructure of the
		   Information Superhighway." -- Jinx_tigr

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 17:27:18 -0000
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #315
Message-ID: <008001bf2c6a$4b5ec200$0d01a8c0@hedge>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
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Kathryn wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 08:38:26PM -0700, Helen Krummenacker wrote:
> > I assume everyone has read "Those Who Walk Away from Omelas", which gave
>
> Ulp - no.  Who wrote it?  When?  I've never heard of it.

It's an Ursula Le Guin short story.


> > us the fascinating situation of a utopia based on a single evil...
>
> Of course now you've spoiled it, is there any point in reading it?

Absolutely. There's much more to it than that.


Una

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 12:37:47 -0600
From: "Reuben Herfindahl" <reuben@reuben.net>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #315
Message-ID: <005401bf2c73$da6d98a0$450114ac@misnt1.tursso.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
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>I like the theory that all the Trek shows are really propaganda
>broadcasts by the Federation's Ministry of Truth.


I'll agree with you on 80's/90's Trek.  But the original Trek universe was
not always a nice place and the charecters certainly had flaws, maybe not
Dystopia, but certainly not Eden.

Reuben

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 08:23:10 +0000 (GMT)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Harry Potter
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-1111082310-0b0Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

On Thu 11 Nov, Joanne MacQueen wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> >From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
> >Lean, large-nosed men with dark
> >hair. I would definitely cast Paul to play the Potions master.
> 
> Gareth for Dumbledore? I've got some re-reading to do, haven't I? <smile>

Has to be.  I was dreaming that the other night.

Judith

PS. Long live Harry Potter.  My son's reading has doubled in quantity since he
discovered the books this summer.  We've all read them now - the copies are
looking well worn.

-- 
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 -  Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs,
pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth
Thomas, etc.  (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.nas.com/~lknight )
Redemption '01  23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 19:26:36 -0000
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Why Dystopia?
Message-ID: <000d01bf2c7c$8e2ddb40$fc468cd4@default>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
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>>Does Star Wars count as a dystopia?
>
>New Hope generally doesn't. Empire definitly would.


Definitely my favourite SW film.  The assault on Hoth has a captivating air
of defeat and futility.  All the stuff on Bespin is brilliant (oh those
ominous cloudscapes, the sun setting on the rebellion's last hope etc), Han
and Leia prised apart, Luke prowling the corridors, the race for the Falcon
... Just shows how good SW can be if you keep George Lucas away from the
screenplay.  One of my all-time favourite SF movie shots is that
blink-and-you-miss-it profile of Boba Fett standing on the ramp of his ship,
cape swirling in the wind.

>I'm trying to think why I like B7. I generally count as tired of
>dystopias. On the other hand, my main gripe with Star Trek (mostly in its
>TNG incarnation) is that it presents a utopia completely lacking in any
>substantive foundation to create it. We _never_ get a convincing picture
>of the culture that created the stability and near lawlessness and
>self-lessness we're told exists there, though we get plenty of evidence
>to the contrary.

I think any utopian set-up has to carry with it an implicit conformity to
some universal set of values which are accepted and followed without
question, whether they reflect real world values or not.

The only utopian story I enjoyed was LeGuin's 'The Dispossessed', not least
because the supposed utopia is revealed to be nothing of the kind.

Neil

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 19:46:56 -0000
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Mornington Crescent
Message-ID: <000b01bf2c7c$8c1de700$fc468cd4@default>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
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Looking through my paperback copy of ISIHAC: the book, I noticed a few other
games that might be suitable for Lyst play.  One is the Last Lines game -
think of a suitable line to end a long-running TV show, or in B7's case a
particular episode.

The Keeper:
Blake - 'Ermm, did anyone think to take a note of those coordinates?'

Orac:
Vila - 'I dunno, it looked more like an exploding photograph to me.'

Harvest of Kairos:
Tarrant - 'Right, so we've got it.  Now who do we know who actually wants
the bloody stuff?'

Hostage:
Vila - 'I'd still like to know where he got his watch from.'
(Horizon Letterzine veterans will know what I'm on about)

Neil

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 19:30:56 -0000
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re [B7L] Whence Herculanium?
Message-ID: <000e01bf2c7c$8f2078a0$fc468cd4@default>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I've just been listening to 'Lava' by the B52s and I'm sure I heard the word
'herculanium' at one point.  I thought this was a neologism coined for the
series  - probably by James Follett, since the first reference was in Dawn
of the Gods, though it was also mentioned in Harvest of Kairos - two 3rd
Season eps presumably written at more or less the same time by two different
writers.  The only other reference I'm aware of was in Power, a 4th Season
ep - but maybe not?

Neil

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 19:52:15 -0000
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Cally's conscience
Message-ID: <000c01bf2c7c$8d42df00$fc468cd4@default>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
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Ellynne wrote:
>How to resolve Cally's statements about 'companions for our deaths' and
>her anti-revenge statements later?


She had 28 episodes in which to change her mind?

Alternatively, the fact that Avon was just out for Shrinker's death, and not
as a companion to his own, might have had something to do with it.

Neil

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 20:03:11 -0000
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #315
Message-ID: <004001bf2c7f$ca7ad6e0$0d01a8c0@hedge>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
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Reuben wrote:

> >I like the theory that all the Trek shows are really propaganda
> >broadcasts by the Federation's Ministry of Truth.
> 
> I'll agree with you on 80's/90's Trek.  

<mutter mutter> like deep space nine <mutter mutter>


Una

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 08:43:54 EST
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Harry Potter
Message-ID: <19991111214357.23842.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

>From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
>Has to be.  I was dreaming that the other night.

Unfortunately, I am re-reading now, and Albus is on the skinny side. Maybe 
some interesting draping of the cloak might disguise the more imposing frame 
Gareth's always had. (Not a minus, by the way - helped to give Blake his 
authority.)

Regards
Joanne

Mr Prongs agrees with Mr Moony, and would like to add that Professor Snape 
is an ugly git.
-- J K Rowlings, Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban


______________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 22:56:01 -0000
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Mornington Crescent
Message-ID: <00c301bf2c98$071a2bb0$0d01a8c0@hedge>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Neil wrote:


> Looking through my paperback copy of ISIHAC: the book, I noticed a few
other
> games that might be suitable for Lyst play.  One is the Last Lines game -
> think of a suitable line to end a long-running TV show, or in B7's case a
> particular episode.

Blake:
Avon: 'Ooh, I think I left the gas on...'

The Way Back:
Blake: 'Ooh, I think I left the iron on...'


Una

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 22:59:33 -0000
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Why Dystopia?
Message-ID: <011701bf2c98$a4073490$0d01a8c0@hedge>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hellen wrote:

> Happy-ending stories are something beautiful, because they show us how to
> deal with the problems, when they occur, hoe to make our moral choice, but
> they are faceless, as well. There is no room for us, in there. For sample,
> in Star Trek it is almost impossible to _improve_ the things. My presence
> there (or whoever's presence) only could impede the crew of it's duty. We
> are just viewers, we do not,... to say, we _could not_ take part in
whatever
> happens on the screen.
>
> On the other way around - distopia supposes personal involvement.

<snip>

> We are searching the moral choice together with the heroes (we still
haven't
> find it, though), we could be _significantly_ helpful, we feel ourselves
> _involved_. (Raise your hands who didn't feel so.) That's why B7 is
better,
> not simply because it's distopia and we happened to prefer dark colours.

Hellen, this is a really great post, really thought-provoking. Thanks,


Una

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 18:36:21 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Re [B7L] Whence Herculanium?
Message-ID: <382B7D24.718FA38D@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Neil Faulkner wrote:

> I've just been listening to 'Lava' by the B52s and I'm sure I heard the word
> 'herculanium' at one point.

According to the lyric sheet, the whole line is:
Let it flow like Pompeii or Herculaneum

My Encyclopedia Britannica has:
Herculaneum (Italy) See Pompeii and Herculaneum.

Unhappily I've lent that volume out this week; but it would appear
Herculaneum was another town wiped out with Pompeii? Perhaps
someone else has the volume I'm missing.

> I thought this was a neologism coined for the
> series

Well, it's not listed on my periodic table of elements, although
admittedly, the copy I have is fifteen years old. I did think I'd
heard the word before B7, though; but I suppose the B-52's song
could account for it.

????
Mistral
--
"Ad hoc, ad loc, and quid pro quo. So little time! So much to know!"
                              --Jeremy Hilary Boob, Ph.D.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 15:05:34 -0700
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: Why Dystopia?
Message-ID: <19991111.200328.10062.0.Rilliara@juno.com>

On Thu, 11 Nov 1999 19:26:36 -0000 "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
writes:
>>>Does Star Wars count as a dystopia?
>>
>>New Hope generally doesn't. Empire definitly would.
>
>
>Definitely my favourite SW film.  The assault on Hoth has a 
>captivating air
>of defeat and futility.  All the stuff on Bespin is brilliant (oh 
>those
>ominous cloudscapes, the sun setting on the rebellion's last hope 
>etc),

And the ambiguity that slips in about the 'good guys,' not just Luke. A
TNG character would say, "Oh, well, the bad guys arrived right before we
did and had a gun to Lando's head. It's not like there are any hard
feelings."

It suddenly hit me that Avon would fit in that universe even if he can't
levitate a lightsaber.  And that there's an idea even more earthshaking
than Vader's revelation: Avon and Mara Jade.

>I think any utopian set-up has to carry with it an implicit conformity 
>to
>some universal set of values which are accepted and followed without
>question, whether they reflect real world values or not.
>
Good point.  And TNG doesn't _have_ core values.  Except that they can
accept practically anything including ritual suicide and vendetta murders
if they're done with the right attitude. 

Ellynne

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Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 11:30:34 +1100
From: Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #315
Message-ID: <19991112113034.C14525@welkin.apana.org.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On Thu, Nov 11, 1999 at 06:20:22PM +0100, Calle Dybedahl wrote:
> >>>>> "Kathryn" == Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au> writes:
> 
> > Ulp - no.  Who wrote it?  When?  I've never heard of it.
> 
> "Those Who Walk Away from Omelas" is a short story by Ursula K.
> LeGuin. I think it's included in the collection "The Wind's Twelve
> Quarters". You can probably find it elsewhere as well.

Hmmm, if it was in "The Wind's Twelve Quarters" I would have read it,
I know I read that one a couple of decades ago.  Of course, I could
have read it and then forgotten it completely, since I can't actually
remember a single story from that collection, just the title.
 
> > Which is why I like the theory that everyone in TNG Starfleet has
> > actually been treated with Pylene 50.  It's the only thing that can
> > make sense of their nauseating niceness.
> 
> I like the theory that all the Trek shows are really propaganda
> broadcasts by the Federation's Ministry of Truth. 

Wrong coloured uniforms.  Or would the drugged populace notice?

-- 
 _--_|\	    | Kathryn Andersen		<kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
/      \    | 		http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat
\_.--.*/    | #include "standard/disclaimer.h"
      v	    |
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha!  |	-> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 15:35:07 EST
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: Re [B7L] Whence Herculanium?
Message-ID: <19991112043507.29702.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

>From: mistral@ptinet.net
>Unhappily I've lent that volume out this week; but it would appear
>Herculaneum was another town wiped out with Pompeii? Perhaps
>someone else has the volume I'm missing.

<smile> Or you ask Harriet, our resident classical expert. But I do remember 
it was the another town wiped out by the same eruption of Vesuvius.

> > I thought this was a neologism coined for the series
>Well, it's not listed on my periodic table of elements, although
>admittedly, the copy I have is fifteen years old.

Simplest explanation, reference to strength of the material the Liberator 
was constructed out of, adapted from the name of the town. If any 
explanation was ever considered, of course. Maybe the town was expected to 
endure and be as strong as the being after it was named, but instead it got 
the volcanic version of the nasty little floating space particles.

I don't think I want to consider volcanically preserved versions of the 
crew...

Regards
Joanne

Actually I think that Emma is slowly being eaten by Dinosaurs at the moment!
--Andrew MacQueen describes the fate of Gwyneth Paltrow movies




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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 00:21:33 -0700
From: Penny Dreadful <pennydreadful@powersurfr.com>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] The Women (was Re: Why Dystopia?)
Message-Id: <4.1.19991111235825.00934850@mail.powersurfr.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 08:54 AM 11/11/99 +0000, Predatrix wrote:

>Cannot help
>noticing you haven't put any comments on the women--come on, lazy or
>not, how wd you encapsulate them?

Oddly (perhaps) I can't really find much with which to identify in the B7
women. Nor in Tarrant, nor in Gan. Therefore I can't just say what of
myself I see in them...and actual critical analysis is such hard work...all
I can say is that none of them quite live up to Starfleet's exacting
standards. Well, maybe Tarrant. And Dayna might make a good Klingon.
--
      For A Dread Time, Call Penny:
http://members.tripod.com/~Penny_Dreadful/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 20:13:33 -0000
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #315
Message-ID: <000c01bf2ce2$d44843c0$2b448cd4@default>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Kathryn wrote:
>IMHO, Utopias never convince me, because fallen human nature is
>guaranteed to screw things up somewhere.

I'd agree with that, except for the 'fallen' bit.

Maybe dystopias are popular with some people because they simultaneously
reassure you that life is a sack of shite, always has been, always will be,
whilst offering a slender hope that things might just get a little bit
better someday, somehow.

I had considered that people who have lived dismal oppressed lives might
prefer dystopias, as a more accurate reflection of their experience of life,
but the two die-hard Trekkers I've known fall into that category.  Maybe
dystopias appeal more to grumpy pessimistic bastards who actually have a
fairly comfortable time of it.  Dystopia then becomes a form of vicarious
suffering.

Neil

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 07:28:07 -0000
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Why Dystopia?
Message-ID: <000d01bf2ce2$d5227720$2b448cd4@default>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hellen wrote:
>Happy-ending stories are something beautiful, because they show us how to
>deal with the problems, when they occur, hoe to make our moral choice, but
>they are faceless, as well.

I'm not sure that happy endings show us -how- to deal with problems.  They
simply tell us that problems can be solved and the 'correct' moral choice
can be made.  If they are 'faceless', then perhaps that is because the happy
resolution rings false, a deus ex machina that rights all wrongs to satisfy
the viewers' expectations (or the prevailing social convention).

>On the other way around - distopia supposes personal involvement. Myself, I
>feel very often a desperate urge to climb into the show, saying things as
>"Hey, guys, where we forgot Cally?", "Hmm, it is actually _unlike_ the main
>control centre to be on Earth...", "Look! Zen is clever enough to
>re-calculate the course, we do not need to go straight through that pinky
>nebula.", "Low gun, you f***** b******!! First think, then shoot - Arlen is
>the traitor!!" or even simply "Watchit! Behind you!"

I think personal involvement is more a measure of our level of emotional
engagement with the film (or whatever).  I remember coming out of
Trainspotting wanting to slam Renton up against a wall and scream in his
face, ''No, no, no, you are -not- a 'bad person'''.  I came out of The
Phantom Menace wanting to string George Lucas up by his codlings.  Now,
whilst I'm aware that these are two very different films, I think the
principle applies - a good film makes you want to engage with the characters
in it, a bad one leaves you wanting to brain those responsible for such
codswallop.  Trainspotting is grim and bleak and has a downbeat ending, and
TPM isn't and doesn't, but I don't think this is a dystopian/utopian
distinction. Trainspotting has realistic, believable characters in the real
world, TPM has no characters worth mentioning at all.  Nice scenery,
excellent pod race, but no characters.

I wouldn't say that realism, or even emotional realism on its own,
automatically makes a film dystopian, nor that dystopia is automatically
'realistic' (as Sally pointed out, they can be utterly lacking in
credibility - a crass overload of death and night and blood might be
dystopian but only in a simplistic if not infantile way).

>We are searching the moral choice together with the heroes (we still
haven't
>find it, though), we could be _significantly_ helpful, we feel ourselves
>_involved_. (Raise your hands who didn't feel so.) That's why B7 is better,
>not simply because it's distopia and we happened to prefer dark colours.

The kind of dystopia I prefer is not so much about searching for a moral
direction, as searching for a moral ground on which to choose a direction.
With the uncomfortable suspicion that that ground might be pulled from under
your feet at any moment, without warning, leaving you back at square one and
forced to start over.

I'm a happy chap, aren't I:)

Neil

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 08:54:14 +0100
From: Jacqueline Thijsen <jacqueline.thijsen@cmg.nl>
To: b7 <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: RE: Re [B7L] Whence Herculanium?
Message-ID: <39DCDDFD014ED21185C300104BB3F99F8A055F@NL-ARN-MAIL01>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

I always thought it was SF-latin for 'really strong stuff that the bad guys
can pound the hell out of without destroying the ship whenever dramatic
tension required the shields to go down a few scenes ago and we didn't get
around to fixing them yet'.

Jacqueline

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 08:59:19 +0100
From: Jacqueline Thijsen <jacqueline.thijsen@cmg.nl>
To: lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: RE: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #315
Message-ID: <39DCDDFD014ED21185C300104BB3F99F8A0561@NL-ARN-MAIL01>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

Una wrote:

> <mutter mutter> like deep space nine <mutter mutter>

Me too, mostly because there are a lot of rebellious types in there. Even
Worf is more of a Klingon on DS9 than he ever managed to be on the
Enterprise. I definitely like the Klingons, the Cardassians and the Ferengi
better than most of the Federation types.

Well, that's two shows I like mainly for its rebels. Especially the snarly
ones.

Jacqueline

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 09:12:22 -0000
From: "Alison Page" <alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #315
Message-ID: <006801bf2cee$21733460$ca8edec2@pre-installedco>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I read one good utopia story - one of Kim Stanley Robinson's Alternative
California series - might have been 'Pacific Rim' (?) He structures the book
very cleverly to stop it from being bland.

The way he does it is to have a central character for whom absolutely
everything in his life goes horribly wrong. The woman he loves to the point
of veneration has a baby with someone else, his father dies in a stupid
pointless accident etc. etc.

At the end of the book he is all on his own and he thinks 'I must be the
unhappiest man in the whole world' - and you realise that because he might
be right, this really is utopia.


Alison

PS - the point of this post being - this emotional complexity could be found
in a well-written utopia, as in a well-written dystopia (cf B7)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 09:37:11 -0000
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Why Dystopia?
Message-ID: <01e201bf2cf1$c978f070$0d01a8c0@hedge>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Neil wrote:

> I think personal involvement is more a measure of our level of emotional
> engagement with the film (or whatever).  I remember coming out of
> Trainspotting wanting to slam Renton up against a wall and scream in his
> face, ''No, no, no, you are -not- a 'bad person'''.

Hmm. I wanted to give him a smack and say, 'You're a bright boy. Stop being
so tedious and sort yourself out!'



> Trainspotting is grim and bleak and has a downbeat ending,

No it doesn't! I find the end of 'Trainspotting' extremely upbeat and
life-affirming!

You're right about the 'Phantom Menace'. Although I think the pod race is
dull, as well.



> I'm a happy chap, aren't I:)

When I think 'Neil', I think 'happy chappy'!


Una

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 09:38:37 -0000
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #315
Message-ID: <01e301bf2cf1$c9facaa0$0d01a8c0@hedge>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Jacqueline wrote:

> Una wrote:
>
> > <mutter mutter> like deep space nine <mutter mutter>
>
> Me too, mostly because there are a lot of rebellious types in there.

Who spend a lot of time complaining about how bloody annoying and smug the
Federation are.


Una

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 03:20:07 PST
From: "Hellen Paskaleva" <hellen_pas@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: Whence Herculanium?
Message-ID: <19991112112007.81355.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Neil Faulkner wrote:
> > I've just been listening to 'Lava' by the B52s and I'm sure I heard the 
>word
> > 'herculanium' at one point.

Then Mistral:
>Well, it's not listed on my periodic table of elements, although
>admittedly, the copy I have is fifteen years old.

According to my periodic table, which is printed _this_ summer, there is 
still nothing to remind even vaguely herculanium. The latest discovered 
elements, with highest atomic weight seem to be very unstable and very 
unlikely to what herculanium was supposed to be. Moreover, they are too 
heavy to be suitable for space-ship covering (one sample - the element No 
111 weights approximately 6 time more than iron does).

I've always assumed, that 'herculanium' is some kind of alloy, not by all 
means metal-based one, though. May be it is even on sub-atomic level, like 
the 'magnetic bottles', used in the cyclotrons and it requires energy source 
to function. This would explain how it protects successfully the ship from 
enemy's blasters (or whatever).

Hellen

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--------------------------------
End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #317
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