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blakes7-d Digest				Volume 99 : Issue 225

Today's Topics:
	 [B7L] Blake
	 Re: [B7L] Jenna and Avon (Cally seems to have dropped out...)
	 Re: [B7L] Tarrant and Vila
	 Re: [B7L] Outside the canonic game (was Writers)
	 Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin
	 Re: Avon & Vila (was Tarrant and Vila (was Re: [B7L]
	Servalan)(long))
	 [B7L] Re: Avon & Vila
	 Re: [B7L] Re: Avon & Vila
	 [B7L] Re: Avon and Soolin
	 Re: [B7L] Re: Avon and Soolin
	 Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin
	 [B7L] Dorian and Avon
	 [B7L] Greedy is as greedy does? (was Re: Avon & Vila)
	 Re: [B7L] Scriptwriters
	 Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin
	 [B7L] Pages Bar
	 Re: [B7L] Jenna and Avon (Cally seems to have dropped out...)
	 Re: [B7L] Jenna and Avon (Cally seems to have dropped out...)
	 Re: [B7L] Re: Avon and Soolin
	 Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin
	 Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin
	 Re: [B7L] Re: Avon and Soolin
	 Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin
	 Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin
	 [B7L] Paul on video
	 Re: [B7L] Greedy is as greedy does? (was Re: Avon & Vila)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 21:27:29 +0100
From: S Riaz <t.riaz@virgin.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Blake
Message-ID: <3794DBB0.D126BDBC@virgin.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Reuben -  I agree with you.  B7 presented a very bleak and dismal
future.  Perhaps that was why Blake was attempting to change it.  The
fact that he was attempting to change it with one ship (no matter how
big and glossy) and a rather unwilling crew is by the by!   Bless him,
he did try.

By the way, does anyone know of a second hand copy of "Pattern of
Infinity" lurking about anywhere that they would be prepared to part
with?  I lost some of my zines in a house move (aah!) and a lot are now
out of print.  Couple that with my computer crashing and I now no longer
have copies of all of my own stories!  Now, I know that a lot of them
were not that great, and you may feel I am being a little
self-obsessive, but I would like to keep copies if possible.   As
"Pattern..." is now out of print I'd appreciate it if you could let me
know if you come accross a copy for sale.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 16:54:32 EDT
From: AdamWho@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Jenna and Avon (Cally seems to have dropped out...)
Message-ID: <d8258020.24c63c08@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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In a message dated 99-07-20 06:43:40 EDT, smanton@hotmail.com writes:

<< Errrmmm - in fanfic, yes. In the actual series, I can only think of
 two lines that could be seen like that myself...the straight-faced
 (and deliberately innocuous <g>) "Because I thought you might
 know," in Weapon, and "this is for your Beloved Leader" in Voice.
 Can you give me examples of others? >>

Trial, when he tells her "welcome back to reality" after she says Gan 
trusting Blake didn't do him much good, and his conversation with Vila 
(Blake's probably gone for good, just go for the money, etc.) seemed like a 
deliberate effort to goad and irritate Jenna as much as possible. 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 16:03:30 -0500
From: Lisa Williams <lcw@dallas.net>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant and Vila
Message-Id: <4.1.19990720160242.03678d30@mail.dallas.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Neil Faulkner wrote:

>If there has to be a facetious pedant on the Lyst then I'd rather it was
>me:)

I was here first. You'll have to settle for Junior Facetious Pedant.

	- Lisa
_____________________________________________________________
 Lisa Williams: lcw@dallas.net or lwilliams@raytheon.com

 Lisa's Video Frame Capture Library: http://lcw.simplenet.com/
 From Eroica With Love: http://lcw.simplenet.com/Eroica/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 17:05:47 EDT
From: AdamWho@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Outside the canonic game (was Writers)
Message-ID: <a909bd20.24c63eab@aol.com>
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In a message dated 99-07-20 15:15:24 EDT, abasart@dnai.com writes:

<< Now to the point: How might the series have developed if all the episodes
 had been written by Terry Nation? By Chris Boucher? (Of course this is
 speculation; but isn't a lot of what we've been doing here just that?)
 
 By the way, because I really don't know, is it Bow-tcher or Boo-chay? >>

If Terry Nation had written for every episode, I think Jenna would have had a 
far greater role in season 2. Season 2 had so many scriptwriters who couldn't 
write for her, wouldn't write for her, or did a fair job but never made her 
the focus of an episode. Of course that's just speculation, since one Terry 
script in 2 had a very strong Jenna (Pressure Point), and a Jenna who did 
nothing but sit at the teleport (Countdown). If Terry had written all the 
episodes in season 3, I think the first half of the season wouldn't be as 
aimless. They'd immediately get back into action against the Federation. And 
the writing for Tarrant would probably be a lot better, considering how well 
Terry wrote for him in Terminal. 

I think Chris Boucher had his good scripts and bad scripts, just like the 
other writers, but at least each episode would have very good dialogue. 
That's one of Boucher's best qualities, his ability to write funny and 
incisive dialogue for each character. I missed his scripts quite a bit 
whenever during the James Follet and Ben Steed episodes. 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 16:32:44 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin
Message-ID: <3795071B.914D9245@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Julie Horner wrote:

> He wasn't entirely indifferent to Dayna at the beginning of 'Aftermath',
> but that interest soon wore off  when he got involved with the family
> and then when she became part of the crew.

I never had the impression that his interest went beyond
what any man might feel at having a pass made at him by
an attractive, intelligent, lively young girl.

> Question is, did that initial attraction wane because she was so young
> and shallow that - although he might have found her initially
> appealing -
> he could never have had a significant relationship with her.
>
> Or did he realise that a relationship with another member of the crew
> would have been a BAD idea.

In Dayna's case the former certainly seems to apply; he would
be looking for a mind/soul mate for anything long-term, and
Dayna would be simply too naive and inexperienced to hold his
interest -- except possibly in a Pygmalion-like way, but can't
see him going to the effort in such difficult circumstances. Add
that to some small residual responsibility he might feel toward
her father and that seems to put her pretty well out of it.

Certainly a *casual* *romantic* relationship on the ship would have
been a blisteringly bad idea and he'd know that. I can see him
possibly indulging in a little casual recreation planetside if it were
offered with no strings; same thing on the ship, but I'd think he'd
break it off instantly if he thought the other was starting to see
it as something more. He wouldn't want to cope with the roller-
coaster of emotions that so many people think of as love; that
would be difficult enough for him under normal circumstances,
but on the ship, it would be intolerable, as there'd be no escape.

OTOH, as years passed, the isolation would become oppressive;
INT emotions are usually quite strong, but repressed; the cool
facade *is* just a facade; and they generally make devoted mates
(witness Rumors). But anything long-term, particularly in such
dangerous circumstances, would have to start as a meeting of
the minds.

> Either of the above could be applied to the case of Soolin who he might
> admire as an outsider on their first encounter but never more than that.

It's difficult for me to guess ages by looks; but I certainly never
felt that Soolin was anything like as emotionally naive and
inexperienced as Dayna; for that matter, Soolin seemed to
consider Dayna very young (Stardrive). As to the second, yes,
quite possible, but it could be overcome by time and shared
experience. They were already quite adept at communicating.

Mmmm... try this comparison; Soolin seems to me the most like
Anna Grant: strong, intelligent, decisive, able to plan and execute
an action, able to understand and manage Avon; in other words,
able to meet him where he is; and Soolin's not the enemy in
disguise. (Well, as far as we know, except maybe in fanfic.)

All of the above just IMHO :)

<g> What a lark!
Mistral
--
"It seems that I'm some kind of a galactic yo-yo."
                   --the third Doctor

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 20:53:32 EDT
From: VulcanXYZ@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: Avon & Vila (was Tarrant and Vila (was Re: [B7L]
	Servalan)(long))
Message-ID: <c85abfc9.24c6740c@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Mistral came up with this interesting idea to back up her view that Avon's 
money-grubbing was the result of a deep insecurity (have I got that right, 
Mistral?) rather than my contention that it was a convenient way to keep 
people at bay:
 
<Well, part of the difference then is that I view him as more or less
 quintessential INTP. INTJs are according to Keirsey the most
 self-confident of the types; INTPs come with a natural system of
 self-doubt in place, as they question everything, including themselves
 and their own perceptions. IMHO the logic is an attempt to explain
 the world, and avoid dealing with the feely-feely stuff, which can be
 quite terrifying. So the logic is superimposed on top of perception;
 and quite often we build ourselves little towers of logic to support
 a position that untrustworthy emotions have backed us into. That's
 what I think is going on with the greed. He's lived so long with the
 idea that money will afford him safety, that when that's no longer
 true (even if it ever was, which is questionable at best), he still
 wants the money; his feelings (fear) overruling his mind.
 
I think this is a very interesting idea.  I guess it all depends on whether 
he is an INTJ, like Spock, or an insecure INTP.  What do the others on the 
list think?
 
Furthermore, as a compensation-device, Mistral feels that Avon is a 
control-freak and adds:
 
 <INTs are extremely independent, want to be responsible for
 their own destiny; but in a society like the Federation seems to
 be, where you're slotted into your social class and profession,
 and have what appears to be very little choice about your life,
 I'd say it would be really difficult for him not to be a *little*
 paranoid, because he'd have almost no control over his own life.
 
Yes, some paranoia would be actually normal in the type of society that Avon 
was living in, sort of like what was found in the USSR where not only were 
you controlled but likely to find yourself in lots of trouble unless you and 
all of your friends and relations were willing to conform, conform, conform.  
The independent INT would certainly have a hard time with this.  But I don't 
see how that makes Avon a control-freak.  Indeed, if he were a control-freak, 
I don't think he could have stayed with Blake who was nearly as controlling 
as the society he was fighting against.

Talking more about paranoia, I say:
 > But I have never seen Avon this
 > way.  In my version of Avon, he is only paranoid about his relationships.
 > His self-image, though, is intact.
 
And Mistral heaves a heavy sigh and replies: 
<Well, I guess I don't see any way for a person to have a
 whole self-image and be paranoid about relationships. Fear of
 relationships usually is a fear of being known, a sense of lacking
 in one's self, not measuring up. (And I don't believe anyone really
 has a whole self-image.)
 
Hmmm, I think I have expressed myself poorly here.  I didn't really mean his 
self-image was whole.  Rather, I find Avon a very compartmentalized person, 
with parts of him able to function normally while other parts do not.  That 
is, the working Avon does fine, retains his knowledge of computers, is not 
afraid to take risks, is rational, etc.  But the relating Avon has been very 
hurt by past experiences and works very hard at portraying a hard-nosed, 
I-don't-need-anyone facade.  Indeed, I know plenty of people who do great at 
work but have no real personal life at home.

Mistral backs up her contention that Avon is obsessed by money when she says: 
<Hmm... but he's an outlaw *because* he was trying to get money!
 Being capable and intelligent wouldn't be much use in a society
 that shoved you in a box and left you there. I see the bank fraud as
 his attempt to 'adapt' :)
 
That is another good point.  Avon was certainly, at one point, very anxious 
to get money.  But we are not told why.  Perhaps, as Mistral suggests, he is 
being obsessive, but there are other possibilities, also.  Perhaps he is 
rebelling against his oppressive society and trying to see what he can get 
away with.  Maybe he made a bad business investment and is in debt.  Maybe 
it's the result of gambling debts.  There are lots of reasons he could need 
money, but the fact that he did feel he needed it does not automatically mean 
he's illogically obsessed with money.  Besides, just because he really needed 
money then doesn't mean he still really needs it on board the Liberator.  He 
has the reputation of trying to steal money, though, so what better thing to 
hide behind than a love of money.
 
Going on to talk about Avon and Tarrant, Mistral makes the comment:
>Actually, perhaps I was unclear, but what I was saying is that
 someone's behaviour doesn't have to be moral to be predictable.

Yes, I agree with this.
 
 Mistral says some interesting things about Stardrive, which I still haven't 
watched, so I'll skip that for now (but try to get back to you in the near 
future, Mistral :)  ) Then she says:
<Else we would have never had to have a draft.
 Probably one of the things I admire about Avon is the ability to
 make those hard choices, even when they horrify me. As I
 think they'd horrify him -- but I also think that he wouldn't have
 been thinking of it so much as murdering Vila as much as
 hastening the inevitable; not trading Vila's life for his own, but
 trading a few *minutes* of Vila's life for his own. (Saving a
 life, not taking one; as in the glass half empty vs. half full.)
 The logical side of him would be telling him that, trying to
 drown out the feeling side's revulsion.

Well, I don't think making someone fight in a war through the draft is the 
same thing as trying to throw them out of an airlock.  At least as a soldier, 
you have a chance to live and you are defending your country, so it's for a 
greater good.  (Ooooh, I think I'm sounding like Blake here!)  

Also, I'm sure you are right, that Avon tried to rationalize his actions by 
saying that Vila was going to die anyway, but IMHO I still can't see that 
that justifies attempted murder!

Mistral further explains: 
<But the point I was making about feeling safe was that it's
 consistent; I can follow Avon's logic; he puts himself first, and
 so I'd know that I'm okay until my safety crosses his. That
 seems a little simpler to predict than when Tarrant is going to
 decide that some benefit to the group merits risking my life.
	 I guess I find predictable risk less frightening than uncertainty.

Yes, I can understand that.  However, if my reading of Tarrant's and Avon's 
characters is correct, it becomes a predictable risk, also.  (And note, I do 
NOT think that Tarrant is working for the good of the group, but for his OWN 
selfish reasons, that is, trying to establish a place in the group.)  The 
only problem with my method is that I must have an accurate reading of their 
characters, and I think it is fairly clear by now that I tend to 
underestimate Tarrant!
 
Mistral also says about Vila: 
<Vila didn't trust Avon so much as he trusted Avon to take care
 of himself, and Vila could benefit from the fallout. He just didn't
 foresee being trapped in an either/or situation.
 
Which seems exactly right to me! 

Yes, this is fun <bounce, bounce, bounce>

Gail

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 20:36:58 -0500
From: Lisa Williams <lcw@dallas.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: Avon & Vila
Message-Id: <4.1.19990720202748.03529360@mail.dallas.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

VulcanXYZ@aol.com wrote:

>I think this is a very interesting idea.  I guess it all depends on whether 
>he is an INTJ, like Spock, or an insecure INTP.  What do the others on the 
>list think?

As, I believe, the original promoter of the Avon-as-INTP concept, I
continue to stoutly maintain: Avon is an INTP. He tries to pass for an INTJ
on occasion, but he doesn't fool *this* INTJ for a minute.

	- Lisa
_____________________________________________________________
 Lisa Williams: lcw@dallas.net or lwilliams@raytheon.com

 Lisa's Video Frame Capture Library: http://lcw.simplenet.com/
 From Eroica With Love: http://lcw.simplenet.com/Eroica/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 19:10:50 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Avon & Vila
Message-ID: <37952C2A.D41843DC@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Lisa Williams wrote:

> As, I believe, the original promoter of the Avon-as-INTP concept, I
> continue to stoutly maintain: Avon is an INTP. He tries to pass for an INTJ
> on occasion, but he doesn't fool *this* INTJ for a minute.

Well, you are the one who convinced me, and I shall be in awe
of your wisdom evermore. Of course, I am a little in awe of
INTJs anyway..... ;-)

Mistral
--
"It seems that I'm some kind of a galactic yo-yo."
                   --the third Doctor

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 23:40:16 -0500
From: natlyn@mindspring.com (Natlyn)
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: Avon and Soolin
Message-Id: <v01540b03b3bafaec3981@[165.247.73.194]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>>Certainly, I did mean at some future point; however, we do know
>>at least that he found her attractive, as he says so in Rescue; and
>>now that I think about it; that's the only case where I can recall
>>him actually saying that about one of the women.

>From: "Julie Horner" <julie.horner@lincolnsoftware.com>
>
>He wasn't entirely indifferent to Dayna at the beginning of 'Aftermath',
>but that interest soon wore off  when he got involved with the family
>and then when she became part of the crew.
>
>Question is, did that initial attraction wane because she was so young
>and shallow that - although he might have found her initially
>appealing -
>he could never have had a significant relationship with her.

Hi! I've been lurking for almost a year and finally thought I'd post. The
Dayna-Avon relationship is one I enjoy immensely. I think his romantic
interest in Dayna waned because, yes, after meeting the family and
witnessing the 'Aftermath' events, he saw her as young, but more important,
I think he felt a bit big brotherly toward her. I don't mean protective as
much as a looking out for/making sure she was okay-the way 'real' big
brothers do, but not necessarily intimately involved in her emotional life.

>Or did he realise that a relationship with another member of the crew
>would have been a BAD idea.

Yes. However, in particular, he'd think Dayna would be a BAD idea. She is
inexperienced (OK, I'm assuming, but even if she'd been involved w/that guy
from Animals--how intimate and how long do you think that lasted?) and she
has a violent streak with a knowledge of weaponry. Bad news if the
relationship goes wrong or something is misinterpreted in the close
quarters they were in.

>Either of the above could be applied to the case of Soolin who he might
>admire as an outsider on their first encounter but never more than that.

Soolin doesn't have the violent streak. She can be violent, but not on
impulse. And I don't believe she is an inexperienced. So on general
principle, Avon might think a relationship with Soolin might not be a good
idea, I don't think he'd think it a BAD idea as with Dayna.

Natalie

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 13:54:38 EST
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Avon and Soolin
Message-ID: <19990721035438.82927.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

>From: natlyn@mindspring.com (Natlyn)
>Soolin doesn't have the violent streak. She can be violent, but not >on 
>impulse.

Hello, Natlyn, and what took you so long? <smile>

Being, unfortunately for those who like the character, ever ready to take a 
scalpel to Soolin, I find myself agreeing and disagreeing.

Certainly, a cool head is on those shoulders, as would be necessary for 
anyone who does a lot of biding their time until the right moment. But I 
would say she does have a violent streak. The question is whether it was 
there to start with, or was it learnt? If the latter, I should say it was 
second nature by the time she appears in the fourth series.

As for impulse, she was rather annoyed with Keiller for killing the doctor 
on the Space Princess. Maybe we have to distinguish between what is a 
necessary killing and what isn't (and from her point of view, too - 
revenging her family would be given a different priority by someone else, 
obviously <grin>). About the only time we don't see her doing something 
particularly calculated is giving sympathy to Vena, and she only does that 
because Vena turned her back on Avon (stop now, Joanne, before that 
particular hobbyhorse comes out of its stable).

Regards
Joanne
(between coughs, which seem to be causing rambling)




______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 06:48:16 -0600
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin
Message-ID: <19990518.065440.9934.0.Rilliara@juno.com>

Remember the way Avon eyed that one woman in Gold?  Without asking
exactly what kind of dishonorable intentions he had or what he would
allow himself to do about them, I'd say Avon was perfectly capable of
considering a _short term_ shallow relationship.  However, crew members
fell into different catagories.  He knew he had to deal with them long
term.

In Dayna's case,  I think he was also influenced by her immaturity _and_
her vulnerability.  When he first met her, she gave a more mature,
confident impression than later events justified.  When she first kissed
him, he may have thought she'd been around the block before (he also had
a head injury and wasn't at his best).  He soon realized he may have been
the first man she'd seen other than her father (her kissing him may have
been the result of getting her ideas from romance novels--and don't bring
up Justin.  That whole episode may have only been a dream Vila had after
one too many drinks).

After her family died, he probably realized entering into a relationship
with her would be taking advantage of her vulnerability.  Not a good
deal.

As for Soolin, she's a crew member and he's not going to get into a
shallow relationship with her, and I just never felt there was the
chemistry between them for something else.  I also think there was a fair
amount of tension between them.  Avon knew Soolin had been willing to
kill them in the first episode.  Avon also saw her turn on Dorian far
more coldly and thoroughly--and in less time--than he turned on Anna
Grant.  No regrets were later expressed.  Her capacity for loyalty--one
of the few emotions Avon values--would not have impressed him at this
point.

For her part, Soolin knew she'd been willing to kill Avon.  She also
hadn't forgotten how her last serious relationship turned out.

Ellynne

___________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 06:54:38 -0600
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Dorian and Avon
Message-ID: <19990518.065440.9934.1.Rilliara@juno.com>

Has anybody else noticed the similarities between Dorian and Avon?  When
Dorian changed into his red, brass studded outfit, it was as if the
director was hitting the viewers with a club.  The color difference
suggested their different motives, lust and self-indulgence on Dorian's
part and logic and control on Avon's, but it was obvious a comparison was
being made.

Was this just a suggestion of what would be happening to Avon over the
4th season, or was there more to it?  Avon and Dorian were both clever
plotters, capable of projecting friendly images to outsiders they wished
to manipulate, and they were smart.

It's funny how quickly Avon realized Dorian had done and learned more
than he could have in a normal lifetime, given how much he's learned and
done.  It was almost like he knew the type . . . .

Ellynne

___________________________________________________________________
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Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 23:29:07 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Greedy is as greedy does? (was Re: Avon & Vila)
Message-ID: <379568B1.4DC76C2E@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Gail wrote:

> Mistral came up with this interesting idea to back up her view that Avon's
> money-grubbing was the result of a deep insecurity (have I got that right,
> Mistral?) rather than my contention that it was a convenient way to keep
> people at bay:

Hmm... I guess that depends on whether you think of a strong
desire to control your own destiny and avoid being controlled
by others as insecurity. I certainly don't; I think of that as
independence, self-reliance, and a little distrust of others' intent
and ability to look out for you as well as you'd look out for
yourself. An individualist sort of philosophy. It *does*, in fact,
often appear a little paranoid to people who are more connection
oriented.

But I think the greed is... a false solution. Poor logic. Shallow
and stupid, and because he doesn't reevaluate it often enough,
a blind spot when we meet him.

> I think this is a very interesting idea.  I guess it all depends on whether
> he is an INTJ, like Spock, or an insecure INTP.  What do the others on the
> list think?

<snicker> You'll never get 'em to agree...  I'll just say that
some of the bits I find puzzling if you say INTJ fall *wham*
into place when you say INTP faking INTJ.

> Furthermore, as a compensation-device, Mistral feels that Avon is a
> control-freak and adds:

Er... I'm sure that you're restating for pupose of clarifying,
but I don't think that I meant it as a compensation-device.
Actually, control-freak is, in itself, a very strong term; I said
a *bit* of one; trying to give an example of how strong I think
this desire for self-determination is in him, so you won't just
think "well everyone wants to control their destiny"; this desire
is *very strong* in INTPs (and INTJs, I think). He doesn't want
his opportunities or his potential for achievement of any sort
limited by what Federation society will allow (like Coser in
Weapon). INTPs want to see all, know all, be all (unless it
involves feely-feely stuff).

> The independent INT would certainly have a hard time with this.  But I don't
> see how that makes Avon a control-freak.  Indeed, if he were a control-freak,
> I don't think he could have stayed with Blake who was nearly as controlling
> as the society he was fighting against.

I don't mean Fed society *gave* him the desire for control.
I mean the regimentation pulled against his *natural* desire
for control and aggravated it.

Until at least Horizon, I think Avon thought he was biding his
time to get control of Liberator. Plus, he was safer there.
Also, I really don't think he felt as controlled by Blake as he
did by the nameless, faceless institutions of Fed society; he
could argue with Blake. From Duel:
   Blake: Does that mean you agree?
   Avon: Do I have a choice?
   Blake: Yes.
   Avon: Then I agree.
Pre-Blake, his voice wasn't heard. With Blake, it was, even
if not always heeded. He probably spent a lot of time hoping
that Blake would learn to pay attention to him; and a lot more
time laughing at himself for bothering to entertain such a
daft hope.

> Hmmm, I think I have expressed myself poorly here.  I didn't really mean his
> self-image was whole.  Rather, I find Avon a very compartmentalized person,
> with parts of him able to function normally while other parts do not.  That
> is, the working Avon does fine, retains his knowledge of computers, is not
> afraid to take risks, is rational, etc.

I agree completely with this part, now I understand what you
mean (and cannot resist mentioning that one of my MB books
mentions compartmentalizing as an INTP trait :)

> But the relating Avon has been very
> hurt by past experiences and works very hard at portraying a hard-nosed,
> I-don't-need-anyone facade.  Indeed, I know plenty of people who do great at
> work but have no real personal life at home.

But here I'll have to say you're only half-right. He indeed works
hard at pushing people away. However, I think you're interpreting
the desire not to be close as an act; for the most part it's not. INTPs
simply do not want very many people close. Actually, of the several
INTPs I know, not one of them has to use more than one hand to
count up his friends. That's not a devaluation of people; it's placing
a premium on friendship. INTPs are serious about the obligations
friendships entail and don't want the various obligations to come into
conflict with each other, because we want to be sure we can keep
them. Also, we want to be sure that those friends feel the same
commitment we do, and understand the importance of being 'let in'.

Mostly, that involves being politely distant and turning down overtures
of casual friendship; the fact that Avon pushes people away actively
would indicate to me that he's been hurt; but it doesn't mean the
desire to be left alone isn't the basic desire in the first place. (This, I
think, is one of the places fuzzy INFPs misunderstand prickly INTPs;
the desire for distance is normal to us, not a dysfunction.) One of
the reasons Blake made the cut is because he pushed back, just as
hard, and he didn't give up-- but his appeal wasn't emotional, it was
practical. (INTPs like to have a practical excuse for emotions.)

> Mistral backs up her contention that Avon is obsessed by money when she says:
> <Hmm... but he's an outlaw *because* he was trying to get money!

Ack! Not obsessed. But true greed. Not the same thing.

<snip>

> That is another good point.  Avon was certainly, at one point, very anxious
> to get money.  But we are not told why.

But I thought we were, when we meet him in Spacefall...

AVON:  Listen to me. Wealth is the only reality. And the only way to
         obtain wealth is to take it away from somebody else. Wake up,
         Blake! You may not be tranquilized any longer, but you're still
         dreaming.
AVON:  Right. A new identity, a job in the Federation Banking System.
         Three months with their computers, I could lift a hundred
         million credits and nobody would know where they went. Then let
         anyone try and touch me.

Wealth=Safety. Even when he doesn't expect to be stuck with
Blake yet. And I don't see him trying to push anyone away with
it, rather trying to persuade them into going along with him; for
example Jenna in Cygnus Alpha, Vila in Gambit.

> Well, I don't think making someone fight in a war through the draft is the
> same thing as trying to throw them out of an airlock.  At least as a soldier,
> you have a chance to live and you are defending your country, so it's for a
> greater good.  (Ooooh, I think I'm sounding like Blake here!)

Yes you are, you fluffy bunny Idealist groupist, you!! ;-)
<Mistral's evil twin taunts Gail, nyah, nyah, nyah!!>

> Also, I'm sure you are right, that Avon tried to rationalize his actions by
> saying that Vila was going to die anyway, but IMHO I still can't see that
> that justifies attempted murder!

You're right. Never said it did.

<hugs>
Mistral
--
"It seems that I'm some kind of a galactic yo-yo."
                   --the third Doctor

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 20:29:00 +0100
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Scriptwriters
Message-ID: <000801bed342$84aec0e0$5114ac3e@default>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

andrew (small 'a') wrote:
>To me, that the system portrayed is not easily, if at all,
>identifiable prevents the (primetime) viewer from being able to
>'locate' the system by the usual rules of decoding TV sf. (Whereas,
>for example, the Whatever in Star Trek is fairly instantly
>identifiable as being based on an expanded form of liberalism.)
>Instead the viewer is left with a political system which is governed
>by an elite, as all political systems are; given that this is the only
>ideological indicator we are provided with the Federation becomes, by
>default, *any* political system.

Yayyyy, yippeee, hurrah (etc).  Suddenly I am no longer alone.

Viewing the Federation as a kind of Everygovernment not only steps out of
the traditional left/right dichotomy, it gives the series a suggestion of an
essentially anarchist perspective (hardly 'outside the traditions of
political satire').  However, there is precious little hard evidence in any
of the episodes to give substance to such putative anarchist leanings.
Blake's ideological position remains resolutely undefined.

This is one of the aspects of the series that makes it accessible to so many
viewers, I think.  Blake can be placed almost anywhere politically (bar the
Far Right, perhaps) and still make sense.  Star Trek's assumption of Western
liberal values and notions of progress probably alienates as many people as
it attracts, but then its values lie in the series concept itself, whereas
B7's are located more firmly in the characters.

I've heard it said that Terry Nation modelled the Federation on the Nazis,
though I don't know if that's just hearsay or he actually said so himself.
I wouldn't mind knowing.

>Phew! I think I'll have a rest and return to lurking for a while

Don't you bloody dare

Neil

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 00:03:02 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin
Message-ID: <379570A5.C021C5@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Ellynne G. wrote:

> Avon knew Soolin had been willing to
> kill them in the first episode.  Avon also saw her turn on Dorian far
> more coldly and thoroughly--and in less time--than he turned on Anna
> Grant.  No regrets were later expressed.  Her capacity for loyalty--one
> of the few emotions Avon values--would not have impressed him at this
> point.

Two small quibbles that make me see this differently:

1) I never saw any indication that Soolin cared for Dorian *at all*.
Mostly she seems irritated by him. IIRC, when he grabs and
kisses her, she quite clearly does not embrace him back. It seems
to me more like a convenience, an arrangement, than a romance,
or even casual recreation.

2) When she turns on Dorian, he has *already* betrayed *her*.
Avon doesn't value loyalty to people who have forfeited it. He'd
consider that abject stupidity worthy of the death it earned her.
I think he'd be more likely to admire the fact that she didn't let
sentiment overrule her better judgment.

Just IMHO,
Mistral
--
"It seems that I'm some kind of a galactic yo-yo."
                   --the third Doctor

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 08:13:20 +0100
From: Steve Rogerson <steve.rogerson@mcr1.poptel.org.uk>
To: Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>, Space City <space-city@world.std.com>
Subject: [B7L] Pages Bar
Message-ID: <3795730F.33266DF6@mcr1.poptel.org.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Just a reminder that list member David Henderson is in the country and
is going for a drink a Pages Bar in London this Saturday (24 July). If
anyone else can make it drop me an email and we'll look out for you.

--
cheers
Steve Rogerson
http://homepages.poptel.org.uk/steve.rogerson

"What is it with you and holes?"
Xena to Gabrielle, Paradise Found

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 03:03:28 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Jenna and Avon (Cally seems to have dropped out...)
Message-ID: <19990721100333.88634.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Adam wrote:
<Trial, when he tells her "welcome back to reality" after she says
Gan trusting Blake didn't do him much good, and his conversation
with Vila (Blake's probably gone for good, just go for the money,
etc.) seemed like a deliberate effort to goad and irritate Jenna as much as 
possible.>

Not a bad answer, but...no, I don't see that he's particularly targeting
Jenna here, nor is it throwing her feelings for Blake in her face. My
reading of this scene is that Avon's playing a malicious game of
"let's pretend we're taking this idea of ditching Blake seriously".
*He* has no intention of doing anything of the sort (otherwise he
wouldn't be indulging his malicious streak like this), but is quite
aware that Vila and Jenna are at least willing to consider it. He's
*playing* with them, first riling Jenna, then turning to Vila as an
even better target (Cally he can't affect, so he ignores her). I don't
think the bit with Vila is aimed at Jenna - it's a gleeful reaction to
Vila taking what he says as sincere.

Not at all a nice game, no (although the fact that they *were*
willing to consider dumping Blake may have added a touch of real if
illogical anger to his malice), but then when did My Hero ever claim to be 
nice?

I still think that Avon was probably aware that Jenna had feelings for
Blake (well <g> they are a little difficult to miss), but genuinely didn't 
care about her and her feelings, not even enough to make
fun of them. In fact, *most* interpersonal relationships within
all four seasons would have interested him only so far as they
affected himself, or the running of the ship.


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 03:06:02 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Jenna and Avon (Cally seems to have dropped out...)
Message-ID: <19990721100603.85377.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Mistral wrote:
<But then on second thought, in the situation where his survival
depends on these five other people, on what they'll do, on their
competence and not just his own, I think he would pay some pretty
close attention just at first, until he'd sorted them out in his mind,
whether he could rely on their abilities and sensibilities or not. At
which point, they could become irrelevant again, unless they'd
sparked his interest. But that *would* involve putting them in a box.>

I'll buy this - he mentally puts people in boxes (or types) as far as
their *external* qualities (abilities, skills, reliability etc) go. For
instance... 'Jenna - reliable, bright, unfriendly - Gan - useful brute
strength, reliable as long as no thinking is required (this is Avon
talking, not Sally!) Tarrant - good at his job, loyal, don't look for
common sense.' Where he wouldn't bother was with their emotions
or beliefs, *except* where he got interested in someone, or said
beliefs affected him personally (as in Guess Who's political agenda <g>)

<The people he'd stay interested in would be the ones who managed to avoid 
being boxed.>

Yup. Avon dislikes having to *think* about other people, but
paradoxically, the people he is IMO closest to among the crew are
usually those he *has* to spend most time thinking about - Vila and
Blake especially, maybe Cally too (alien thought processes being
hard to fathom?) - the more unpredictable, less straightforward
types. Jenna and Gan are both fairly straightforward, and he
basically dismisses them as not worth the mental effort (again IMO).

As I said before, I think Jenna dislikes people not fitting into the
boxes. Avon may look to classify people, but then likes them better
if the classifications don't work...



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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 03:07:19 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Avon and Soolin
Message-ID: <19990721100723.77959.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Joanne wrote:
About the only time we don't see (Soolin) doing something
particularly calculated is giving sympathy to Vena, and she only
does that because Vena turned her back on Avon (stop now, Joanne,
before that particular hobbyhorse comes out of its stable).

Bring it out, Joanne, bring it out! I'd like to know what you meant by this.



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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 03:08:26 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin
Message-ID: <19990721100830.23932.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Ellyne wrote re Animals:

<That whole episode may have only been a dream Vila had after
one too many drinks.>

Ahhh...the perfect way to explain *any* episode we cannot abide...
okay, who was the s o b crew member who dreamed up Power?


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 03:17:40 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin
Message-ID: <37959E44.1F333D9F@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sally Manton wrote:

> Ellyne wrote re Animals:
>
> <That whole episode may have only been a dream Vila had after
> one too many drinks.>
>
> Ahhh...the perfect way to explain *any* episode we cannot abide...
> okay, who was the s o b crew member who dreamed up Power?

Sorry, Sally, that was Avon :) :) :)

Mad-in-Motley Mistral
--
"It seems that I'm some kind of a galactic yo-yo."
                   --the third Doctor

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 03:19:35 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Avon and Soolin
Message-ID: <37959EB7.86E680D8@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sally Manton wrote:

> Joanne wrote:
> About the only time we don't see (Soolin) doing something
> particularly calculated is giving sympathy to Vena, and she only
> does that because Vena turned her back on Avon (stop now, Joanne,
> before that particular hobbyhorse comes out of its stable).
>
> Bring it out, Joanne, bring it out! I'd like to know what you meant by this.

No, you wouldnt ;-)

Mistral
--
"It seems that I'm some kind of a galactic yo-yo."
                   --the third Doctor

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 03:35:08 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin
Message-ID: <19990721103508.18811.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

After I wrote:
<okay, who was the s o b crew member who dreamed up Power?>

Mistral answered:
<Sorry, Sally, that was Avon :) :) :)>

Okkkaayyyyy...and the obvious next question is what the *hell* had he been 
drinking?????



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Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 03:45:30 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin
Message-ID: <3795A4CA.52FF2B9A@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sally Manton wrote:

> After I wrote:
> <okay, who was the s o b crew member who dreamed up Power?>
>
> Mistral answered:
> <Sorry, Sally, that was Avon :) :) :)>
>
> Okkkaayyyyy...and the obvious next question is what the *hell* had he been
> drinking?????

Straight adrenaline -- hold the soma.

Madcap Mistral
--
"It seems that I'm some kind of a galactic yo-yo."
                   --the third Doctor

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 08:40:39 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Paul on video
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0721074039-d07Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

Does anyone have good quality copies of things like Drake's Venture, Guardian of
the Abyss, etc.?

Cult TV con (where Paul will be a guest - look under 'conventions' on my web
site) would like to show a good selection of Paul's work in their video
programme.

They've got the obvious Blake's 7 and Dr Who stuff, but did anyone out there
tape 'Grusome Grannies' for example?

Please drop me a line if you can help and I'll put you in touch with the con. 
(They might be willing to tape you something else by way of thanks.  I know they
have Paul in Emmerdale Farm)

JUdith
-- 
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 -  Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs,
pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth
Thomas, etc.  (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.nas.com/~lknight)
Redemption '01  23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 08:11:10 EDT
From: Bizarro7@aol.com
To: mistral@ptinet.net, blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Greedy is as greedy does? (was Re: Avon & Vila)
Message-ID: <6e84e1af.24c712de@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 7/21/99 2:28:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
mistral@ptinet.net writes:

<< > Mistral came up with this interesting idea to back up her view that 
Avon's
 > money-grubbing was the result of a deep insecurity (have I got that right,
 > Mistral?) rather than my contention that it was a convenient way to keep
 > people at bay: >>

It's been a long time since I've watched the episodes and I may have missed 
someone else's mention, but didn't Avon actually say (RUMORS OF DEATH?) 
"We're going to be so ruch that no one can touch us."

That sounds like evidence toward both motivations. Mistral and Gail are 
probably both right.

Leah

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End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #225
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