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blakes7-d Digest				Volume 99 : Issue 223

Today's Topics:
	 Re: [B7L] Another door closes
	 Re: [B7L] Soolin and Avon? Mmmm... Mmmmm... Mmmmm
	 [B7L] Re: Tarrant and Vila
	 Re: [B7L] Jenna and Cally... and the wonderful Jarriere
	 [B7L] Chenie (Was Jenna and Cally... and the wonderful Jarriere)
	 [B7L] Re: Re:Avon & Vila
	 [B7L] Jenna and Cally
	 Re: [B7L] Jenna and Cally
	 Re: [B7L] Re: Tarrant and Vila
	 Re: Avon & Vila (was Tarrant and Vila (was Re: [B7L] Servalan)(long))
	 Re: Avon & Vila (was Tarrant and Vila (was Re: [B7L] Servalan)(long))
	 Re: Avon & Vila (was Tarrant and Vila (was Re: [B7L]
	Servalan)(long))
	 Re: [B7L] Jenna and Cally
	 Re: [B7L] Lyst Wars/Jenna and Cally
	 Re: [B7L] Re: Tarrant and Vila
	 Re: [B7L] Re: Tarrant and Vila
	 Re: [B7L] Jenna and Cally

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 07:52:46 +1000
From: Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Another door closes
Message-ID: <19990718075246.A22542@welkin.apana.org.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On Tue, Jul 13, 1999 at 06:13:13PM +0100, Judith Proctor wrote:
> On Mon 12 Jul, Trevor Gensch wrote:
> > Are there contact details for these two fellows?
> > 
> > I am new to the world of online Blake fandom.
> 
> Kathryn Andersen - kat@welkin.apana.org.au

However, all Refractions (zine) correspondence should go to
refract@welkin.apana.org.au
 
-- 
 _--_|\	    | Kathryn Andersen		<kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
/      \    | 		http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat
\_.--.*/    | #include "standard/disclaimer.h"
      v	    |
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha!  |	-> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 00:04:07 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Soolin and Avon? Mmmm... Mmmmm... Mmmmm
Message-ID: <19990718070407.24070.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Gail wrote:
<It would take a woman of extraordinary empathy, compassion,
and patience to do so.... someone just like Cally!>

You're not biased by any chance, Gail? <g> As a non-fan of the
Auron, I can't agree. The empathy, compassion etc is blurred by a
strain of what I see as self-righteousness (Breakdown, Star One,
Rumours) and a strong but slightly lazy conscience, both of which,
in direct conflict with Avon's selfishness and rather brutal honesty
(or exaggeration) about his darker side, would react rather badly
IMHO (well, when they did come up against each other - from
Children of Auron through to Rumours - the result was not pretty).


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Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 00:05:19 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: Tarrant and Vila
Message-ID: <19990718070520.28987.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Mistral wrote:
<OTOH, in DotG, Tarrant decides that none surviving is better than
one surviving. Excuse me? To me, *that's scary*!>

The problem I have with Tarrant's action here is it's soooo daft
<g>. I don't believe for one minute he learned this one in military
school (maybe they still teach that the captain goes down with the
ship - not that Avon's the captain, at this stage they ain't got one -
but I don't remember the maxim *everybody* goes down with the ship...)

The boy has brains. He's headstrong, self-willed and clearly of the
belief that one acts first and thinks later (and then only if it's
*absolutely* necessary) but he isn't stupid. So where *does* this nonsense 
come from?????


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Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 00:06:20 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Jenna and Cally... and the wonderful Jarriere
Message-ID: <19990718070627.11779.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

TigerM wrote:
<You just need to watch Trial, Hostage, Gambit and Star One again,
you'll soon come to an appreciation of the True Travis....<eg>>

Gambit, eh? The only reaction I have there is when he calls Jarriere a
powder-puff - and said reaction is "that's a bit rich coming from you..."

Sally - heading for the bunker...(Joanne, Susan, let me in!!!)




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Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 00:08:43 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Chenie (Was Jenna and Cally... and the wonderful Jarriere)
Message-ID: <19990718070843.39553.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Adam wrote re Chenie:
<She was a bit of a stereotype, but a mother influence on the crew
sounds like a refreshing change. They definitely needed a motherly
influence in some season 2\3 episodes.>

Oh, I agree about the stereotype, but it would still have been fun.
Vila would have adored her - I can imagine how he'd take to a bit of
mothering <g> plus her skill with mixing drinks...oh, yes. I *can*
see her getting on with Cally, knowing exactly how to put a firm but
good-natured foot down when Tarrant needed it, protecting my poor
little Jarriere (who's quite small enough to hide behind those skirts).

And the sheer joy of watching someone deciding that Avon needs
mothering, and is going to get it whether he likes it or not, would
be...<gurgle>.


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Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 00:11:21 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: Re:Avon & Vila
Message-ID: <19990718071121.46336.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Jennifer wrote:
<My problem with Avon's action in Orbit is not the personal one,
but that he breaks the contract - inexplicit though it may be - with
his crew. They agree to follow him as leader - in return for that
consent a leader agrees not to sacrifice his followers to save his own
life. Avon panicked and threw that away - bad Avon!

Uh-uh. No contract IMO, since Avon never wanted the job of leader.
He was pushed into it by a combination of factors [a] he wanted the
*ship*, [b] he did *not* want the people who went with it, but
couldn't really get rid of them, and [c] with Blake (and maybe Jenna,
but he'd have fought that) gone, there was simply no one else
competent to run the show. The others didn't *agree* to follow him
as leader - they pushed him out in front of them, with the blaster-
muzzle of what might happen if one of them took over in his back
<g>. Avon would not consider himself bound by the sub-clause of a
contract he never agreed to in the first place. And it isn't as if he
didn't make that crystal clear from mid-3rd season onwards...


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Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 00:12:50 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Jenna and Cally
Message-ID: <19990718071254.43927.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Neil wrote:
<As for Cally, well - 'my' Cally is not particularly compassionate,
she's a guilt-ridden traumatised wreck struggling to salvage some
delusion of identity from her self-imposed exile from home.>

Much preferable, IMO, to the ultra-empathic unsufferably wise earth-
mother-cum-agony-aunt I see too much of in fanfic...

<My rationale was that Jenna was intensely xenophobic, which
required inventing a background for her in which she'd been shafted
by aliens from a very early age.

Oh dear...I just took the view that she was inclined to be narrow-
minded by nature (lazy lazy me) which helped with her snarliness to
an unusually gracious Avon in Time Squad (just after he Did The
Right Thing and rescued her and Blake. And I notice he was never
gracious about it again - thanks, Jenna...)

I must think of a better reason than 'because'.



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Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 03:21:05 EDT
From: AdamWho@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Jenna and Cally
Message-ID: <a74af873.24c2da61@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 99-07-18 03:14:07 EDT, smanton@hotmail.com writes:

<< Oh dear...I just took the view that she was inclined to be narrow-
 minded by nature (lazy lazy me) which helped with her snarliness to
 an unusually gracious Avon in Time Squad (just after he Did The
 Right Thing and rescued her and Blake. And I notice he was never
 gracious about it again - thanks, Jenna...) >>

She did say "nice flying" in a non-sarcastic way, that's as close to a 
compliment as he'd ever get from her. If the shoe was on the other foot, and 
Jenna saved Avon\Blake, I have little doubt Avon would hold back the praise. 
Season 3 Avon might thank her, season 1\2 Avon is too sarcastic and 
comfortable in a cynical cocoon to give her his thanks. 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 01:26:51 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Tarrant and Vila
Message-ID: <37918FCA.4802C4D7@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sally Manton wrote:

> Mistral wrote:
> <OTOH, in DotG, Tarrant decides that none surviving is better than
> one surviving. Excuse me? To me, *that's scary*!>
>
> The problem I have with Tarrant's action here is it's soooo daft
> <g>.

Yes, thanks for saying this better than I did. It's so odd that it's
unpredictable; scary in its illogic.

Mistral
--
"It seems that I'm some kind of a galactic yo-yo."
                   --the third Doctor

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 02:36:39 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Avon & Vila (was Tarrant and Vila (was Re: [B7L] Servalan)(long))
Message-ID: <3791A027.81AD93D4@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Jennifer Beavan wrote:

> My problem with Avon's action in Orbit is not the personal one, but that he
> breaks the contract - inexplicit though it may be - with his crew. They
> agree to follow him as leader - in return for that consent a leader agrees
> not to sacrifice his followers to save his own life. Avon panicked and threw
> that away - bad Avon!

With respect; generally commanders who sacrifice their
lives for their men are considered heroic; therefore it's not
the norm. In wartime, it's generally the one less valuable
to the effort that's sacrificed--a follower. The private dies
for the general, not the other way around.

Setting that aside for the moment, however; I don't believe
that Avon ever considered himself a leader in that sense, or
that the others considered him such, either. His comments
to Keillor in the previous ep, Gold, indicate this, and Tarrant's
to Piri in Assassin back it up; and there are probably others.
Avon was leader as long as he had the best ideas and the
most vicious snarl, not because he'd been vested with any
particular trust, or had made any personal commitment to
the welfare of the others.

Vila ran as soon as he heard Orac make the suggestion;
he didn't expect Avon to feel any responsibility for him.

Just IMHO,
Mistral
--
"It seems that I'm some kind of a galactic yo-yo."
                   --the third Doctor

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 04:40:49 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Avon & Vila (was Tarrant and Vila (was Re: [B7L] Servalan)(long))
Message-ID: <3791BD40.F9F768D0@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Gail, about Avon's greed:

> Well, that's one of the reasons I think it is, at least in part, an act,
> because worrying so much about money is so illogical.  And Avon isn't
> anything if he's not logical.

:) Don't confuse Avon with Spock. Avon's far more complex.
Avon is frequently illogical all the way right out to irrational.
His behaviour in Rumors is anything but logical. There are
*lots* of examples.

Avon has quite a bit of the control freak in him, IMHO. The
greed is about that control; a desire not to be controlled by
others 'We were going to be so rich no one could touch us.'
That's Avon fooling *himself*, not putting on a front for others.

> Mistral went on to say:
> You see, here's the difference (and maybe it's F/T?). I think
>  that they could *both* get me killed. I just think Avon would get
>  me killed for a reason that I could logically agree with. With
>  Tarrant, I'd always be afraid that I wouldn't see it coming,
>  wouldn't comprehend the reason, and therefore, wouldn't have
>  any way to protect myself.
>
> Hmmmm.  Well, my thought on this is that Tarrant's threats are 90% bluff,
> born out of a need to establish himself in the pecking-order of the crew,
> while if Avon said he would throw me out the airlock, I'd take him more
> seriously.

Actually, the idea of that kind of bluff scares me even more.
It's exactly what I'm talking about. If somebody could bluff
me that effectively, it would mean I couldn't predict what
he'd actually do, well enough to feel safe. It seems to me that
you're saying (correct me if I'm wrong) that you'd trust Tarrant
because you *didn't* believe him, and not trust Avon because
you *did* believe him. For me, that's unfathomable.

Re Orbit:

> But Avon, at this point, was putting his own survival above all things.  Not
> only did this ruin his relationship with Vila, one of the few people left
> that he could relate to, but it also must have sickened his already sick
> soul.  And he would have to live with the guilt.  Furthermore, since Avon was
> putting himself first at this point, I don't think he would have said to
> Vila, if the situation had been reversed, "Oh, that's okay that you tried to
> kill me.  After all, you were just being logical."  Rather, it would have
> made it impossible for Avon to trust Vila and perhaps would have caused some
> sort of retaliation.

You're confusing predictable with nice, logical with moral.
I'm not asking you to become a T, Gail, just understand
that Avon's not an F. Moreover, as far as we know, a T
without any religion or moral philosophy that leads him to think
it's better to put others first. Of course he put himself first
when faced with *certain* death; he always does, (except for
Anna and Blake). Which makes this behaviour predictable,
and therefore, to me personally, less scary. I didn't say I
agreed with it.

> Then Mistral says:
>  OTOH, in DotG, Tarrant decides that none surviving is better
>  than one surviving. Excuse me? To me, *that's scary*!
>
> Well, its fine if others die so that someone can survive, but it must be
> their own choice!

??? Okay, I'd understand this if you'd put it after my Orbit
comments, but what has it got to do with DotG? Avon putting
on the space suit *doesn't* put anyone in more danger than
they're already in, isn't sacrificing someone else in order to
live; whereas Tarrant trying to drag the suit off him doesn't
accomplish anything except insuring that Avon dies. To me
that seems selfish, pointless, stupid, Scary.

> Any decision to let others die so I can live, especially
> if I cause their death, is nothing but murder.  And by doing this, I really
> murder the inner-me.  It would be better to all die than live with this
> spiritual death.

Okay, now I really can't sort out where you're talking about
Orbit, and where you're talking about DotG. Maybe simpler
if I just say that those are not Avon's values; look at Stardrive.
I didn't see *anybody* throwing themselves off Scorpio in
sympathy for Dr. Plaxton.

Try out this analogy: Two dogs, one consistently vicious, the
other friendly and affectionate sometimes, vicious sometimes.
Which is the more useful dog? The vicious one is perfect for
a guard dog. The other one doesn't make a good guard dog
*or* a good pet.

:) I think perhaps you're saying you'd rather put your faith
in Tarrant's noble nature than Avon's nasty one? Whereas
I'd rather trust in my ability to understand one or the other;
and Tarrant confuses me because I can't find the pattern.

Grins,
Mistral
--
"It seems that I'm some kind of a galactic yo-yo."
                   --the third Doctor

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 09:23:29 EDT
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: Avon & Vila (was Tarrant and Vila (was Re: [B7L]
	Servalan)(long))
Message-ID: <38928d6c.24c32f51@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Jennifer wrote:

> My problem with Avon's action in Orbit is not the personal one, but that he
>  breaks the contract - inexplicit though it may be - with his crew. They
>  agree to follow him as leader - in return for that consent a leader agrees
>  not to sacrifice his followers to save his own life. Avon panicked and 
threw
>  that away - bad Avon!

Strong agreement from me.  And I believe agreement from Avon.  His later 
actions suggest someone who found his ORBIT behavior to be reprehensible.  
Not that the situation didn't appear to be that only one could survive and 
there was no reason for both of them to die, but that he unilaterally decided 
that *he* should be the one to survive.

Avon's reluctance to leave Tarrant to die on Scorpio is one of the examples 
that suggest (to me) Avon's not happy with his behavior in ORBIT.  But 
Tarrant chases him off with "So get the hell out of here, will you?  There's 
no point in both of us dying."  In this case, Tarrant is the pragmatic one 
and Avon the one who is letting his emotions guide him.  A nice reversal that 
was, and more than ever indicative of complex humans vs. caricature.  Humans 
are not robotistically consistent and predictable.

It's Avon's regret that allows me to still like him after ORBIT.  As I've 
often said, they all made mistakes, it made them more human.  I wouldn't like 
any of them if I couldn't accept that they are going to make mistakes.  Mind 
you, in Vila's shoes I wouldn't be any more forgiving than he is.  He has 
every right to feel outraged over Avon's action.  

Carol Mc

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 12:56:31 +0100
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Jenna and Cally
Message-ID: <000d01bed14b$d8c9aa80$674a8cd4@default>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Adam wrote:
><<As for Cally, well - 'my' Cally is not particularly compassionate, she's
a
>guilt-ridden traumatised wreck struggling to salvage some delusion of
>identity from her self-imposed exile from home.>>
>
>I can see that in Time Squad, through Mission to Destiny or Duel, but you
>don't think she began to change after that? Or she just learned to bury the
>guilt?

Joining the Liberator would offer her a chance to come to terms with
herself, yes, so the guilt would be allowed to take a back seat.  Blake's
struggle, as a cause she could identify with, would be something she could
comfortably throw herself into, as a means of exorcising Saurian Major and
giving substance to her own identity as an exile.

Neil

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 12:56:56 +0100
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Lyst Wars/Jenna and Cally
Message-ID: <000e01bed14b$da289e40$674a8cd4@default>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sugar wrote:
>I'll have to start watching Cally with Neil's description in mind.  Even if
>I'm not able to like her, perhaps I'll begin to be able to find her
tolerable.

That last statement might explain why I find some of the character analyses
and associated defence statements so exasperating.  I have no trouble
tolerating any of the regular characters.  I like them all, whilst loving
none of them.

One of the more positive aspects of B7 for me was the way all of them were
flawed one way or another.  So Tarrant's bullheaded egotism (or whatever you
want to call it), Blake's fanaticism (if that's what it really was), Dayna's
brattishness etc etc help to deepen the characterisation.  So I like all the
characters -because- of their shortcomings, rather than preferring one or
the other -in spite of- their less redeemable aspects.

The only character that grates with me is Servalan, and then only half the
time.  I end up seeing two Servalans - the real one, and the incongruously
dressed vamp, which I blame on the scriptwriters.

Neil

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 12:52:00 +0100
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Tarrant and Vila
Message-ID: <000c01bed14b$d74f3f80$674a8cd4@default>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sally wrote:
>The problem I have with Tarrant's action here is it's soooo daft
><g>. I don't believe for one minute he learned this one in military
>school (maybe they still teach that the captain goes down with the
>ship - not that Avon's the captain, at this stage they ain't got one -
>but I don't remember the maxim *everybody* goes down with the ship...)

Ships on the ocean might go down, thanks to gravity, but surely -space-
ships go -up-?  With as many spectacular explosions as the budget can cater
for.

Neil

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 13:45:51 -0500
From: Lisa Williams <lcw@dallas.net>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Tarrant and Vila
Message-Id: <4.1.19990718134341.012cff10@mail.dallas.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Neil Faulkner wrote:

>Ships on the ocean might go down, thanks to gravity, but surely -space-
>ships go -up-?

Only during liftoff. Once they're out in space, there is no "up" or "down".
Then, they just go.

	- Lisa
_____________________________________________________________
 Lisa Williams: lcw@dallas.net or lwilliams@raytheon.com

 Lisa's Video Frame Capture Library: http://lcw.simplenet.com/
 From Eroica With Love: http://lcw.simplenet.com/Eroica/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 04:46:02 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Jenna and Cally
Message-ID: <19990719114608.18050.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

After I wrote:
<Oh dear...I just took the view that she was inclined to be narrow-
minded by nature (lazy lazy me) which helped with her snarliness to
an unusually gracious Avon in Time Squad (just after he Did The
Right Thing and rescued her and Blake. And I notice he was never
gracious about it again - thanks, Jenna...) >

Adam replied:
<She did say "nice flying" in a non-sarcastic way, that's as close to a 
compliment as he'd ever get from her. If the shoe was on the other
foot, and Jenna saved Avon\Blake, I have little doubt Avon would
hold back the praise. Season 3 Avon might thank her, season 1\2
Avon is too sarcastic and comfortable in a cynical cocoon to give her his 
thanks.>

It ain't the lack of thanks I was thinking of (though do play fair, he
says thank you bee-yoo-tifully to Fearless Leader in Pressure Point.
Doesn't thank Gan for catching him, but <g>). It was the sarcastic,
not-quite-joking and quite unecessary dig about "not sounding too
sure..." How she got *that* from his tone of voice I don't know, but
given what happened in Cygnus Alpha maybe she just wanted to
find it.

Comes down to my version of Jenna (just like Neil said <g>) She'd
got him pegged as a self-serving s o b who'd ditch them all (well,
definitely Blake and herself) at the first chance he got. And he -
err - didn't. She doesn't understand, she doesn't understand why *Blake* 
does seem to understand, and she's a bit peeved (no, not
to the point where she'd rather he proved her right, but still...)

I just see her as someone who likes people to fit neatly into her
preconceived notions. Gan does. Blake and Vila seem to (emphasis
on the word seem). Cally, as an alien, and Avon, who is hardly the
world's most predictable creature at the best of times, don't.



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End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #223
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