From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V99 #143 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume99/143 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 143 Today's Topics: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (potential spoilers) Re: [B7L] Servalan not killing Avon Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (potential spoilers) Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (potential spoilers) [B7L] Servalan not killing Avon Re: [B7L] Servalan not killing Avon Re: [B7L] Re: Avon & Rubbish Re: Fwd: Re: [B7L] Singing in the Bath Re: [B7L] Servalan not killing Avon [B7L] Scorpi-eaus: a B-Side Re: [B7L] Freedom of Speech (was Bullies) Fwd: Re: [B7L] Re: Avon & Rubbish Re: [B7L] Servalan not killing Avon Re: [B7L] Servalan not killing Avon Re: [B7L] Servalan not killing Avon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 05:56:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Peter Borg To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (potential spoilers) Message-ID: <19990422125643.3582.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Potential spoilers for anyone who hasn't seen it yet! Anyway, was watching Star One last night, and noticed some stuff which I hadn't noticed before.... First, Servalan's tone of voice when referring to the Star One's technicians' "selfless devotion to the Federation" - she has as much contempt for them as Avon seems to in his line "makes you proud to be human". Surely she would expect this of people she considers unimportant, and who's to say they volunteered? I wonder if they did not volunteer, but the record shows they did as a form of propaganda? Second, the whole thing around Avon's line "I want to be free of him". He never actually responds to Blake's question regarding hate, never confirming that he actually did hate Blake. And further, in the same and later episodes he shows continuing commitment to Blake. So is it that he needs to be rid of Blake, that the needs it to end so he can be rid of any feeling of debt or responsibility towards Blake? Is it just that he want's to be able to do what he wants to with the Liberator, but has been prevented from doing so by Blake? Thrid, Blake's internal debate about destroying Star One. What did he actually hope to acheive? He knew millions would die as a result, but did not seem to be able to justify that other than to absolve his own conscience, or perhaps to find a goal for his cause. A final aside - does the control panel which is repeatedly seen in the background in sector four on star one look familiar to anyone else? It has a bank of concentric semi-circles of switches/lights/buttons, with the flat edge at the bottom of the panel. It looks horribly familiar, but I can't think where else I've seen it. Peter. === -- Peter Borg peter_borg@yahoo.com _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 09:00:30 EDT From: VulcanXYZ@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Servalan not killing Avon Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Murray says: << Servalan isn't one of those evil characters who gives the hero a half-hour speech about what she is going to do to him and her future plans for ruling the galaxy. >> But she does exactly that in Aftermath (well, maybe not half and hour, but it is a nice, long speech). That lovely scene between her and Avon -- one of my favorites! Gail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 10:02:49 PDT From: "Stephen Date" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (potential spoilers) Message-ID: <19990422170251.48926.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-type: text/plain Peter Borg wrote: >Anyway, was watching Star One last night, and noticed >some stuff which I hadn't noticed before.... > >First, Servalan's tone of voice when referring to the >Star One's technicians' "selfless devotion to the >Federation" - she has as much contempt for them as >Avon seems to in his line "makes you proud to be >human". Surely she would expect this of people she >considers unimportant, and who's to say they >volunteered? I wonder if they did not volunteer, but >the record shows they did as a form of propaganda? Durkim is obviously much less ruthless than Servalan and I take her response as baiting him after his expression of horror. I think that you are right about the technicians though. If they were programmed to want to protect Star One at all costs they could have been just as easily programmed to want to stay there. Let's face it, they weren't induced by the pay and prospects. >Second, the whole thing around Avon's line "I want to >be free of him". He never actually responds to Blake's >question regarding hate, never confirming that he >actually did hate Blake. And further, in the same and >later episodes he shows continuing commitment to >Blake. So is it that he needs to be rid of Blake, that >the needs it to end so he can be rid of any feeling of >debt or responsibility towards Blake? Is it just that >he want's to be able to do what he wants to with the >Liberator, but has been prevented from doing so by >Blake? I have to say I took that entire debate to be stress. There they are, on the verge of destroying the Federation for good. For 200 odd years the Federation has been a fixed point in everyone's life. They've been cooped up together for goodness knows how long and they're all getting on each others nerves. In Aftermath and Powerplay Avon is still concerned about getting in touch with Blake (Listen to the urgency in his voice as he interrogates Zen about Blake's well being in Aftermath). I therefore am not inclined to take Avon's desire to be rid of Blake that seriously. Incidentally Avon doesn't respond to the "I didn't realise how much you hate me" jibe IMHO because he thinks Blake is being petulant. There isn't really a good answer to that one, "Yes I hate you" would have been untrue "No I don't hate you" would have been vaguely demeaning. "Grow up and get a life" is another response that springs to mind. On the other hand Avon has been a major p in the a for two seasons so maybe we should cut Blake some slack. >Thrid, Blake's internal debate about destroying Star >One. What did he actually hope to acheive? He knew >millions would die as a result, but did not seem to be >able to justify that other than to absolve his own >conscience, or perhaps to find a goal for his cause. Destroying Star One would destroy Federation power over the Outer Worlds leading to a revolt on Earth and the Inner Worlds. The justification is loosely analogous to, say, the Bombing of Germany during WWII. Yes, civilians were killed, but the ends - the destruction of a totalitarian dictatorship were felt to justify the means. Whether Churchill - or Blake - was right is a vexed question. (My view ? - Probably). >A final aside - does the control panel which is >repeatedly seen in the background in sector four on >star one look familiar to anyone else? It might have been in a earlier episode of B7. If not it was in Doctor Who. Assuming that you just haven't seen too many ropey BBC props and are beginning to think they all look alike ! Stephen ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 19:06:37 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (potential spoilers) Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Thu 22 Apr, Peter Borg wrote: > Potential spoilers for anyone who hasn't seen it yet! > > Anyway, was watching Star One last night, and noticed some stuff which I > hadn't noticed before.... > > First, Servalan's tone of voice when referring to the Star One's technicians' > "selfless devotion to the Federation" - she has as much contempt for them as > Avon seems to in his line "makes you proud to be human". Surely she would > expect this of people she considers unimportant, and who's to say they > volunteered? I wonder if they did not volunteer, but the record shows they did > as a form of propaganda? I think Servalan has comtempt for anyone who doesn't put their own self-interest first. The Star One crew had supposedly volunteered for life,so that would make them very stupid in her book. She would (to use Nelson's fine distinction) require such devotion, but not expect it. (Apparantly Nelson's classic 'England Expects' line came out because they didn't have the right signal flags to do 'England requires every man to do his duty') > > Second, the whole thing around Avon's line "I want to be free of him". He > never actually responds to Blake's question regarding hate, never confirming > that he actually did hate Blake. And further, in the same and later episodes > he shows continuing commitment to Blake. So is it that he needs to be rid of > Blake, that the needs it to end so he can be rid of any feeling of debt or > responsibility towards Blake? Is it just that he want's to be able to do what > he wants to with the Liberator, but has been prevented from doing so by Blake? I think Avon wanted to be free of the sense of responsibility he had for Blake. He also had a problem in that Blake's dedication to his cause (especially early on) tended to be catching. He swept others along with him and they found themselves believing it too. As Blake became more fanatic, it was hard for those who had already become dedicated to following him. ('I choose to follow. It isn't quite the same thing') It's that emotional link that he wants to be free of. But of course, Blake leaving didn't sever it. As you point out, later episodes show that the committment to Blake is still there. > > Thrid, Blake's internal debate about destroying Star One. What did he actually > hope to acheive? He knew millions would die as a result, but did not seem to > be able to justify that other than to absolve his own conscience, or perhaps > to find a goal for his cause. You have to go back and watch 'Pressure Point' to understand this better. Funnily enough , none of the crew had moral objections to taking out Central Control when it was on Earth. Taking it out would I assume have wrecked the Federations communications system, have totally disrupted troop movements, have destroyed the records on the populace, etc. It would also have made it much harder for the Federation to threaten individual worlds and have thrown them back on thir own resources. The Federation's centralised control was a recipie for disaster in many ways as it mean that they, rather than the local people had control over things like traffic control, climate control, etc. Just imagine how that can be used to keep a world under control. Misbehave and you won't have any rain next spring. Rebel and no ships will reach your world to supply you with industrial goods/food/whatever. It's possible that Blake intended to force people back on their own resources. A good thing in the long term, but very very damaging in the short term. Perhaps a bit like breaking up the old USSR. The effects on industry, trade, commerce, the economy, were not always seen in advance and were very varied. In the long term, it was hopefully a good thing, but the short term result was poverty for many. (Though I think some countries fared much better than others). > > A final aside - does the control panel which is repeatedly seen in the > background in sector four on star one look familiar to anyone else? It has a > bank of concentric semi-circles of switches/lights/buttons, with the flat edge > at the bottom of the panel. It looks horribly familiar, but I can't think > where else I've seen it. Possibly the sub control room from 'Redemption'? Just a guess. Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 Fanzines for Blake's 7 and many other fandoms, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 18:04:03 EDT From: NetSurfCK@aol.com To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Servalan not killing Avon Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/22/99 5:28:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time, mjsmith@tcd.ie writes: << I agree completely with Deborah on this. Servalan isn't one of those evil characters who gives the hero a half-hour speech about what she is going to do to him and her future plans for ruling the galaxy. >> Sure she does. In fact, that's exactly what her intricately devised plans are...a half hour of telling Avon what she's going to do. Unfortunately, Avon doesn't always recognize it. One of the first conclusions *I* reached after viewing third and fourth season for the first time is that neither Avon nor Servalan would kill the other face to face. Servalan can order Avon's death abstractly (as she did in "Warlord", "Harvest at Kairos", etc.) but I've never seen her even *try* to kill him when she is in close proximity to him, though she has had opportunity. I believe she never intended to kill Avon in "Rumours of Death" simply because she wasn't ready for him to die at that point. She still held some hope of bringing him to her side. She enjoyed playing with him in his pain at that moment but I can't see that she wanted to kill him. That smile was too smug. ;) << For example, in 'Orac', she was quite brief with Blake and Cally before telling Travis to kill them. >> The A/Sevalan fan in me has to say that's because she didn't care about either of them. Cynthia ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 18:31:40 EDT From: AChevron@aol.com To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Servalan not killing Avon Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-04-22 08:36:21 EDT, you write: << Her deliberately letting him go and pretending it's and accident is much better writing than the deus ex machina of being distracted by the rebel's entrance. >> Very nicely put case for Servalan not wanting to kill Avon at that moment. I might even buy it, except for my personal suspicion that Servalan's too canny to allow a potential threat like Avon(with the Liberator) to escape, even for the pleasure of knowing he's suffering emotionally. But again, my suspicion is only personal, and your viewpoint is one I might yet be swayed to. But what about the other instances where she almost gets Avon? D. ROse ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 16:15:57 PDT From: "Joanne MacQueen" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Avon & Rubbish Message-ID: <19990422231558.50502.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-type: text/plain Kathryn wrote: >But who knows, maybe Avon would be practicing singing "The >Ladies of the Harem of the Court of King Karacticus" instead... The Court of King Caractacus (if that's the right spelling) ... Well, he's got the memory for it (damned if I can remember all of the members of that monarch's entourage without prompting). However, I don't know if he'd know what a harem was. Though he could certainly find out (thinking of a few names on this list who would help him, I'm sure ). Regards Joanne ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 16:25:58 PDT From: "Joanne MacQueen" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: [B7L] Singing in the Bath Message-ID: <19990422232559.93396.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-type: text/plain Sally wrote: >Actually, (as long as the Liberator has soundproof walls) how about > >'raindrops on roses and whiskers on kittens...' "Brown paper packages tied up with string, these are few of my favourite things" That leads on to other things from The Sound of Music, in my rotten imagination. "Doe, a deer", for instance, or "The Lonely Goatherd". "Climb every mountain" is stretching it a bit, I think. That's one for Blake, to my mind. Oh, no, the sound of "How do you solve a problem like Maria" leaking through the walls...Triple the soundproofing at once! >'I feel pretty, oh so pretty...' >'On the Good ship Lollipop' Oh, well, why not? But after, while he's getting dressed, so he can tapdance if he wants to. (No, I don't think that's terribly likely ) Regards Joanne ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 22:24:57 -0700 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: Re: [B7L] Servalan not killing Avon Message-ID: <37200428.601AB173@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Responding to two separate posts, but my answers overlap quite a bit, so I'm combining them to avoid repeating. D. Rose wrote: > Very nicely put case for Servalan not wanting to kill Avon at that moment. > I might even buy it, except for my personal suspicion that Servalan's too > canny to allow a potential threat like Avon(with the Liberator) to escape, > even for the pleasure of knowing he's suffering emotionally. But again, my > suspicion is only personal, and your viewpoint is one I might yet be swayed > to. But what about the other instances where she almost gets Avon? D. ROse I totally agree that she's very canny. The audacity of her convoluted machinations is matched only by the audacity of her fashion sense. But, like everybody else, she makes mistakes. Makes one in every ep she's in, actually, or she'd have beaten them in the first series. I'm not sure exactly what you're asking about the other instances though, so I'll summarize them. Cynthia wrote: > One of the first conclusions *I* reached after viewing third and fourth > season for the first time is that neither Avon nor Servalan would kill the > other face to face. Servalan can order Avon's death abstractly (as she did > in "Warlord", "Harvest at Kairos", etc.) but I've never seen her even *try* > to kill him when she is in close proximity to him, though she has had > opportunity. I'm in agreement with Cynthia about Servalan not being quite able to kill Avon face to face. Most of the time we have *multiple* motivations for our actions. Their rivalry/admiration/bordering-on-affection sways the balance in his favor on occasion. It rarely if ever actually stops her killing him; generally it's just a matter of her wanting him to realize she's won. In Rumors, he's opted out of the game. That's not the same thing at all. OTOH, I'll have to say that Avon would have killed Servalan quite easily. He just didn't get a clear shot where he didn't have a compelling reason not to. In big strokes, so as to condense: she can and does try to kill him as part of the group. She does it in such a way, however, that gives him time to realize she's won. This is why they've always got a window in which to escape. (Kairos, Terminal, Assassin, etc.) OTOH, in these cases Avon's only trying to stay alive; the only way he ever has an opportunity to kill her from a distance (in series C and D) is by a space battle, and he's always either outgunned/outnumbered/crippled and runs away. He does want her dead, but not at risk to himself (and in series C, not very badly). In series C, they have only four one-to-one confrontations: Aftermath, Rumors, Death-Watch, Terminal. In Aftermath, she needed something from him; and he was abiding by a truce; but I notice that once he had Orac back, he had no objections to Dayna killing Servalan, it was simply that Orac operated the teleport before she could. In Death-Watch, they were restricted by the Teal-Vandor Convention; she had to abide by those rules in order to continue her plan, and he had to abide by them in order to thwart her plan and save Teal and Vandor. In Terminal, he had no chance to kill her, and she didn't kill him because she needed him to get control of the Liberator. (She might have been angry enough to kill him just before Tarrant and Cally were brought in, or she might have thought better of it and used him against the others - we'll never know.) In series D, the only place they're ever face-to-face, even in a group, is in Gold, and that's a stand-off. I don't actually see it as a truce. By this time Avon's made it clear that he wants her dead. In Traitor, he says "I *need* to kill her *myself*," (emphasis mine). Avon rarely admits to wanting anything, let alone needing it. I think the emotions rearing themselves up here are genuine. And talking to Soolin at the end of Gold: "...and an outside chance of killing Servalan, would you rather I hadn't?" To me this says that he would have killed her if the odds had been good enough -- they weren't. "You're not the sacrificial type," Servalan tells him, and he agrees. So that leaves Rumors. Avon doesn't kill Servalan because it would violate that annoyingly inconvenient sense of honor he has -- he's offered her her freedom for information, and she's agreed. The fact that the information arrived unexpectedly from another source doesn't change the agreement -- he sets her free. As for Servalan not killing Avon in Rumors, I'm seeing *multiple* motives. 1) He's just given her back her life, and she's returning the favour; 2) It's no fun for her to beat him if he's not playing the game; she wants to make him suffer, as I said in my previous post; 3) With Blake lost and Anna dead (and therefore his ideals effectively gone, so Servalan thinks, although some of us might disagree), he might just be persuaded in future to change sides and join her; remember at their next meeting in Deathwatch she says to him "But I don't think of you as an enemy, Avon, I think of you as a future friend." 4) At this point she's had very little direct contact with Tarrant; she understands Avon far better, and believes him to be very much like she is; she has a better chance of getting the Liberator and Orac from him than from Tarrant, because with Avon, she has a better idea what buttons to push; and 5) We learn in Terminal that this plot has been being prepared for a *very* long time; it's possible she started working on it immediately after Aftermath/Powerplay; if she kills Avon in Rumors, all that effort is wasted and she has to start figuring out how to beat Tarrant, but if she lets Avon go, she might not only make Avon suffer, but get the Liberator and Orac using the Terminal plot. We do have a prior case of her letting Blake, Avon, and Gan escape in order to secure something she wanted worse at the moment -- IMIPAK, in Weapon. (Yes, she still intended to kill them using IMIPAK, but she could have equally intended to destroy Avon at Terminal.) All around, it actually seems quite reasonable to me that she might think letting him go is smarter than killing him. But it has to *look* like an accident to him. Actually, apart from not blowing the charges manually at the end of Terminal, the mistake she makes that annoys me most is that in both Kairos and Terminal she fails to be certain that she's secured Orac before she starts gloating. This is an *egregious* error on her part. Since she's really out for her own power, instead of the benefit of the Federation, Orac would, IMHO, be a much more valuable tool to her than the Liberator ever could be, apart from which, Orac could probably help her reconstruct the Liberator more easily than an army of scientists could. So yes, she's canny, but she does, IMHO, make huge mistakes; and I think letting Avon go at the end of Rumors was deliberate, but not necessarily a mistake, just a calculated risk combined with combined with her own twisted pleasure at his suffering. But I'm also wondering what everybody else thinks about the relative value of the Liberator and Orac? Just IMHO, Mistral -- "You asked; I told you" -- Jarvik ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 22:48:09 -0700 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: [B7L] Scorpi-eaus: a B-Side Message-ID: <37200998.DDB842C@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Those lovable mop-handles, the Scorpi-eaus, have just informed me that the B-side to their most recent effort is relevant to the discussion at hand. You may want to skip this. ***************** Soul Mates by the Scorpi-eaus (Tune: Her Majesty) The President's the woman for me; I'm enamored of the games that we play. The President's the woman for me; Though she's evil in every way. Ruthless and clever and a beauty besides, But you'll never see it going to my head; The President's the woman for me; Some day I'm going to kill her dead, oh yeah -- Some day I'm going to kill her dead. ******************* (exeunt -- really fast) -- "One has to face these hazards when exploring new frontiers." --Egrorian ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 03:22:02 PDT From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Freedom of Speech (was Bullies) Message-ID: <19990423102207.16024.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-type: text/plain Oh yes, I like that bit. How about the following - what would you call them? Orac - Avon orders Vila to go down to Aristo with him; when Vila protests that he can barely stay on his feet, Avon snarls 'then crawl!' (PS - why on earth *does* he pick Vila to take with him?) Gambit - Vila's (literally) in the hot seat, Avon orders him to play speed chess when backing out will lose them their 5 million credits. I think these two shade fairly close to browbeating, but differ from Tarrant's in that he doesn't use threats, just sheer force of - er - personality (what would he have done if Vila said no? Perhaps Vila doesn't want to know?). I might add that there's considerably less excuse for Avon making Vila play speed chess (to protect their winnings) than Tarrant making Vila go down alone in City, but then it was Vila's own fault that the credits were in danger... Unquestionably. And he gets plenty of it on the flight deck (you can say what you like, he *knows* you'll end up doing what you're told...). Though sometimes both he and Cally - and maybe even Tarrant - must wonder if compromising a principle can be excused if it would SHUT AVON UP.... > Avon would insist on free speech for himself and literally doesn't give a damn about whether or not anyone else has it, unless they can use it against him. *Then* he'd get nasty - I don't think he'd take it away in principle, he'd just find a way to get even with anyone who attacked him. I think that she would want to talk sense to them first, try and make them see reason. If she had to talk for hours... ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 03:30:46 PDT From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Fwd: Re: [B7L] Re: Avon & Rubbish Message-ID: <19990423103046.1208.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-type: text/plain Joanne wrote: The Court of King Caractacus (if that's the right spelling) ... Well, he's got the memory for it (damned if I can remember all of the members of that monarch's entourage without prompting). However, I don't know if he'd know what a harem was. Though he could certainly find out (thinking of a few names on this list who would help him, I'm sure ).> Damn it, Joanne - isn't it enough that I've got mental images of Avon singing 'I'm so pretty' (now followed by 'I'm a lonely little petunia in an onion plot'- my mother's singing has left *deep* musical scars in my memory) in the bath, and meeting up with the Pythonish Brian (and shooting him, of course) - and now I've going to dream of Avon & Vila in the remake of 'Lost in a Harem'... ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 04:22:49 PDT From: "Stephen Date" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Servalan not killing Avon Message-ID: <19990423112255.30779.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-type: text/plain Mistral wrote: >We learn in Terminal that this plot has been being prepared for >a *very* long time; it's possible she started working on it immediately >after Aftermath/Powerplay; if she kills Avon in Rumors, all that effort >is wasted and she has to start figuring out how to beat Tarrant, but if >she lets Avon go, she might not only make Avon suffer, but get the >Liberator and Orac using the Terminal plot. If you think that Servalan spared Avon then I think this had to be Servalan's motivation. Regard for Avon does not come into it. Servalan is an amoral sociopath whose only redeeming feature is her fashion sense. The events on Terminal are set up quite early on in the series, in Volcano Servalan tells Mori that the Liberator crew is there to investigate "Obsidian's strategic value which is real, and a rumour which is not". So what does Servalan know at this stage...Also in the first half of the third series there are a spate of attempts by Servie to capture the Liberator. Aftermath, Volcano, Harvest, Children of Auron...and then abruptly she stops... until Terminal. I think, given at the time everybody thought season 3 would be the last season, that the line in Volcano is supposed, casually and unnoticed, to set us up for Servie's grand plan in Terminal. Of course the Beeb then commissioned another series, enabling Chris Boucher to bring Blake back, briefly, from the dead. If one were really going to go to town, one could create a PGP scenario whereby Servalan had told the truth at Terminal (which I think was the intention in the script at the time) in which case who did Servalan see cremated, and who did Avon shoot on Gauda Prime ? >But I'm also wondering what everybody else thinks about the >relative value of the Liberator and Orac? "A few, a very few of the Liberator's systems were of minor interest..." With Orac you could build a fleet of Liberator's. Stephen. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 05:40:39 -0700 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: Re: [B7L] Servalan not killing Avon Message-ID: <37206A46.AA1156E6@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stephen Date wrote: > Mistral wrote: > if > >she lets Avon go, she might not only make Avon suffer, but get the > >Liberator and Orac using the Terminal plot. > > If you think that Servalan spared Avon then I think this had to be > Servalan's motivation. Regard for Avon does not come into it. > Servalan is an amoral sociopath whose only redeeming feature is her > fashion sense. Primary motivation very possibly, but sole motivation is IMHO *too* simple. What you are suggesting makes her a caricature, a cartoon; not a worthy opponent for Avon. Apart from which, Servalan seems to actively enjoy putting the hurt on Avon in several eps, notably Terminal; sociopaths are generally indifferent to the feelings of other people *either way*, as long as they get what they want. Most behaviours that go beyond filling a basic need (such as thirsty=drink) have more complex motivations. Even deciding to answer posts such as these would have layers of motivation; how much more so a decision to kill or not kill one's favorite enemy/plaything? I didn't mean to imply that affection alone would be enough of a reason for her to spare his life. What I said was: > Their rivalry/admiration/bordering-on-affection sways the > balance in his favor on occasion. It rarely if ever actually stops her > killing > him; generally it's just a matter of her wanting him to realize she's > won. Meaning that it's a factor in her ambivalence, is all. And also meaning that it's often, although not always, an *unconscious* factor (as opposed to a conscious one). For whatever reason, I've become convinced over the course of this discussion that she *must* have let him escape at the end of Rumors. Anything else is simply too unbelievable for me -- in game *and* out. Just IMHO, Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 07:33:03 PDT From: "Stephen Date" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Servalan not killing Avon Message-ID: <19990423143316.280.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-type: text/plain I wrote: >> If you think that Servalan spared Avon then I think this had to be >> Servalan's motivation. Regard for Avon does not come into it. >> Servalan is an amoral sociopath whose only redeeming feature is her >> fashion sense. And Mistral Replied: >Primary motivation very possibly, but sole motivation is >IMHO *too* simple. What you are suggesting makes her >a caricature, a cartoon; not a worthy opponent for Avon. I think Servalan is a worthy adversary for Avon because she is as clever as he is. Servalan is a Dictator, like most of the species her ruling passion is power. I think the decision whether or not to kill Avon would have been primarily based on whether it advanced her interests. The fact she's been chained to a wall in her own palace doubtless inclines her to engage in a little recreational sadism - hence the bit about sending the Liberator a corpse. But if she spared him it was because she had Terminal up her sleeve. The Liberator and Orac weighed against the gratification of blowing Avon's head off would have been strictly no contest I imagine. >Apart from which, Servalan seems to actively enjoy putting >the hurt on Avon in several eps, notably Terminal; >sociopaths are generally indifferent to the feelings of other >people *either way*, as long as they get what they want. You may well know more than me on this subject. I was under the impression that sociopaths have no conscience - hence my diagnosis of Servalan. If on the other hand they have no enjoyment of inflicting pain then I concede that Servalan is not a sociopath. >Most behaviours that go beyond filling a basic need (such >as thirsty=drink) have more complex motivations. Even >deciding to answer posts such as these would have layers >of motivation; how much more so a decision to kill or not >kill one's favorite enemy/plaything? I agree Servalan's emotional life was quite complex. But I think the will to power subordinated all her other emotions. (She virtually admits as much in Sand). I accept that the ambivalence is there. I just don't think that it would have stopped her killing him, unless there was an ulterior motive for leaving Avon alive. I don't think that makes her one dimensional - merely ruthless ! >For whatever reason, I've become convinced over the >course of this discussion that she *must* have let him >escape at the end of Rumors. Anything else is simply >too unbelievable for me -- in game *and* out. Personally, I am quite able to accept the idea that Avon was fortunate enough to be saved by Hob's intervention. Chance is part of the fortunes of war. Napoleon used to ask of his generals "Has he luck". On the other hand I am speechless with admiration for your Terminal theory. Elegant, simply elegant my friend ! Stephen. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #143 **************************************