From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V98 #4 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume98/4 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 4 Today's Topics: [B7L] "Out of death was I born...." Re: [B7L] The Way Back 4/4 [B7L] Sex-- het mode [B7L] Sex-- slash mode [B7L] dorian crew Re: [B7L] Sex-- het mode Re: [B7L] Sex-- slash mode [B7L] Re email junkie [B7L] Og-Gan [B7L] Strazynski Gives Credit Re: [B7L] Og-Gan Re: [B7L] Re Terminal, and an apology Re: [B7L] Sex-- slash mode Re: [B7L] Og-Gan Re: [B7L] The Way Back 4/4 Re: [B7L] "Out of death was I born...." Re: [B7L] Slash debate Re: [B7L] "Out of death was I born...." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 21:17:01 GMT From: dixonm@access.mountain.net (Meredith Dixon) To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] "Out of death was I born...." Message-ID: <34b1fc49.244922449@pharos.dixon.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 4 Jan 1998 13:47:08 +1100, Kathryn Andersen wrote: >A whole bag of Gens? Maybe they were Liliputian Gens. >And to think, Avon and Tarrant were secretly Simes all this time! >Hmmm, puts another slant on that "kiss of death" don't it? Avon's a Sime, no question, and Tarrant and Cally and Vila are quick and graceful enough to be Simes too. Gan and Blake are definitely Gens, and when Blake gets worked up about something he influences the ambient nager on the Liberator. This is why Avon keeps feeling that Blake is manipulating them...he is. Whether he's doing so consciously or unconsciously can be decided by your interpretation of Blake. I'm less sure about the others. I think Jenna must be Sime also, otherwise the Blake-Avon-Jenna dynamic of the first season wouldn't work out well at all. (I know I just said I don't care for explicit sex, but I can just see a story in which Avon and Jenna (nearly?) come to blows because they both want to take transfer from Blake.) Hm. There's a problem here, though. That gives us Avon, Jenna, Cally and Vila as Simes, and only Gan and Blake as Gens. And I can't see any of those four as a channel, can you? Cally's definitely a Sime. Avon's definitely a Sime. So either Jenna or Vila has to be Gen. I guess it's got to be Jenna after all; in a Sime-Gen world, I can't see a Gen succeeding as a thief. So, Avon, Cally, and Vila are Simes, Blake, Jenna and Gan are Gens. Orac doesn't affect the equation, but Gan's death certainly does. They probably raid off-ship while they're looking for Star One. At the start of the third season, we still have Avon, Cally and Vila, and they're joined by Tarrant and Dayna. Tarrant's a Sime, and I'd assume that weapons-specialist Dayna is also. And naturally Soolin is, too. This in itself goes a long way toward explaining the difference between the first two seasons and the second two...first and second season, they're a balanced set of transfer partners; third and fourth seasons they're a hunting pack of Sime raiders. You know, this *works*. :) Meredith Dixon dixonm@access.mountain.net ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 10:25:21 -0800 From: Pat Patera To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] The Way Back 4/4 Message-ID: <34AFD411.1776@geocities.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NWOutsider wrote: > re: The Way Back 1/4 - 4/4 Wow. Sue, what are you on? And where can I get some? Pat P PS. Yes, Jenna and Vila would be great story partners - foils as perfect as Avon and Vila. I now have visions of pre-London Jenna tearing her hair out during some smuggling operation where she had hired Vila to do a part. Yes, he comes through, but not in the straight-line, predictable fashion that she would expect and appreciate. :) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 98 05:57:00 GMT From: s.thompson8@genie.geis.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Sex-- het mode Message-Id: <199801050616.GAA12001@rock103.genie.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" These are old threads, but I'm just back from vacation and catching up. In addition to people whose e-mail access is though school or work, even those of us who have computers at home may be away from them during holidays-- or just too busy to be very active. About high heels: hasn't anyone considered the enormous psychological advantage =to the wearer= of being several inches taller? Some short women favor high heels for the same reason that short men put lifts in their shoes, or wear cowboy boots if they can get away with it. For a woman trying to function professionally in a male-dominated environment, the advantage of being more nearly on a level with one's colleagues may far outweigh a little physical discomfort. I bet that has a lot to do with why Jenna favors substantial heels-- and why, for that matter, Avon does too. ;) As for high heels allegedly leading to injuries, I personally have always found it to be just the opposite. I have a bad ankle that has been sprained many times and broken once, and the accidents always happen when I'm wearing flats, never with heels. My theory is that the extra height of the heel gives a split-second extra to recover one's balance if the foot starts to go down crooked, whereas with a flat shoe all your weight has come down on it before there's time to compensate and adjust. Way back on 12/15, Russ Massey said: >Intelligence and humour are big turn-ons, and to my mind Jan >provides Cally with the impression that she is always thinking and >understanding, as well as being aware of the inherent humour in >the situations she's often in. and Iain Coleman said: >Basically, I (and by extension all men) go for the Strong Women. >(Some women seem to think guys want fluffy simpering airheads - I >can't think where they get that impression, but it's entirely >fallacious). When I say "strong", I don't necessarily mean >physical combat abilities (though I don't discount them), but >rather strength of character and personality. And then on 12/21 Alex Dering said: >I think the whole thing about what are men attracted to is >explained brilliantly by Berke Breathed, who used to draw Bloom >County. In one strip, Binkley's father is having a dream sequence >and this gorgeous young woman floats on it. >Who are you? he asks. >She replies that she is his dream wife. >My dream wife? >Yes, she continues, listing a few reasons why, ending with one of >the truest lines I've ever read: "I'm almost, but not quite, as >smart as you." > >And that, I think, is what an awful lot of guys - at least the >hetero ones - are after in a woman. Someone who isn't going to >out-think them. Erm, Iain, I think Alex just explained why an awful lot of women think that men prefer stupid bimbos. Because they've had the experience of being ditched by guys they liked for being too intelligent, that's why. The notion that it's OK for a female to be smart as long as she's not =too= smart is not very consoling somehow, because how can one know where any given man is going to draw the line? On 12/30, Sven asked: >But we guys have always been puzzled over why women fall for men >that will inevitably destroy them. The "treat 'em mean, keep 'em >keen" attitude will have a lot of supporting empirical evidence, >while the new-age snag approach often leads to a high heel in >one's face. > >Why are women attracted to men such as Avon with whom a normal >relationship would be inherent unstable and one-sided? Other people have addressed this issue very eloquently already, but just to sum up several points in reply: 1) It's not at all clear that Avon would necessarily be such bad news in a relationship. Since he is perhaps the most ambiguous of all the fascinatingly ambiguous B7 characters, the matter of his attitude toward women can be (and has been-- check the archives) argued back and forth at great length. But I think it can be said that most of the women who find the character appealing consider him to have the potential to be an unusually devoted mate, based on his relationship with Anna, his avoidance of casual affairs (so refreshingly different from the typical tomcat TV hero!), and his behavior toward the female crew members (as opposed to female enemies, who are another kettle of fish altogether). 2) As Judith pointed out, there's a big difference between sexual fantasy and real-life desires. Avon's character may be ambiguous, but Servalan's is unquestionably bad, and yet many male B7 fans think she's very hot stuff indeed. Does that mean that they want to be in real-life relationships with women who will inevitably destroy them? Or, to put it in more frivolous terms, for every woman who jokingly says, "If he kissed me before he shot me, that would make it all worthwhile," there's a man who says, "I'd be dead in a week, but what a week!" 3) With regard to real-life romance, I think that the proverbial blindness of love applies to both sexes. It's not just women who show an inexplicable fondness for awful mates; I've known plenty of men who stuck with nasty, crazy women even though nicer and more attractive women were readily available to them. (I once read a how-to-get-a-man book whose advice could be summed up as "Be a total bitch, because that's what men really want.") In general I would say that people of both sexes who stay in a bad relationship do so either because they are getting something else out of it (money, social status, great sex, whatever) that makes it worth putting up with the bad parts, or because they have already invested so much emotional energy in the relationship by the time it goes seriously bad that they are reluctant to admit that they have made a mistake and let go of it. Sarah Thompson ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 98 05:58:00 GMT From: s.thompson8@genie.geis.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Sex-- slash mode Message-Id: <199801050616.GAA12156@rock103.genie.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Iain Coleman said: > I can believe Blake is gay. I can believe Avon is bi. But I >cannot believe they have sex with each other because I _know_ the >kind of relationship they have, I've _been_ there and it just >wasn't like that. Bloodless revolutions and other silly plots not >only aren't in the same league of wrongness, they're in a >completely different sport. Blake being naive violates his >character, the good guys winning without cost violates the tone of >the series, but Blake and Avon shagging violates everything I know >about relationships between two men. >Funnily enough, slash as simple porno titillation doesn't bother >me at all. It's slash as an exploration of the Blake-Avon >relationship that I have a problem with. I find that whole idea >wrong, annoying, and hurtful. I'm amazed at myself, that I can >feel that someone else's ideas about two fictional characters is >hurting me by sneering at my deeply held friendships with real >men, but there you go. I never was as rational as I like to think >I am. Actually, Iain, I find your feelings about the inappropriateness of slashing B7 (or at least Blake and Avon) perfectly understandable, because I feel that way myself about another, different fandom. I won't name it because I'm hoping against hope that the slash fans won't find it! The original product depicts an extremely intense friendship between two men that is, however, very clearly not sexual in nature. For me, adding sex would spoil the quality of that relationship as it is. But this is a matter of the individual fan's interpretation of the particular characters. In the case of B7, I personally have no problem sustaining various different interpretations of the characters, including different interpretations of their sexuality and their relationship with each other. I do very much enjoy stories about an intense non-sexual relationship between Blake and Avon. My favorites are the wonderful Suzan Lovett stories that Judith has recently reprinted in =The Road to Hell=; they have as much emotional impact for me as good slash does, and I recommend them highly to both gen and slash fans. I like them just the way they are and think that in the case of these particular stories, adding sex would spoil their emotional flavor. In other cases, however, the sex is essential to the story. Kathryn's argument against slash based on statistical probability is one that I've heard before in a somewhat different form. I once had a lengthy private e-mail discussion with a friend who said that, given that roughly about 10% of the general population is primarily homosexual (though I agree with Steve that it's really probably a bit more than that), she could accept =one= of the main series characters being gay or bi, but not two. So the only slash stories she found believable were the ones that involved some other minor or original character! She liked the treatment of Avon's bisexuality in the Hellhound stories for this very reason. However, it's important to remember that statistics only really apply to large groups. 6 men, 5 women, and 3 AIs (the cast of ongoing characters) is definitely not a statistically significant sample. Given that, and the fact that the Beeb was so reticent about sex in general on what was supposed to be at least partly a children's show, I think we can pretty much postulate whatever we please. For me, looking at all the different possibilities is a big part of the fun of fannish erotica. Kathryn also said: >Disclaimer: most people here know that I don't like or read slash, >for various reasons, and that the above reason (the >it-is-out-of-character reason) is one of the smallest of them. >But I'm not going to touch on the others, because discussions of >morality are guaranteed to induce flamage, and the Spin List is >the only place where I've seen such things successfully and >intelligently discussed *without* flamage. Three cheers for all >you intelligent and considerate folk who have made such a thing >possible. Kathryn, who exactly are you cheering here? Surely not Ross Mallett, the owner of the spin list, who on this list has very nastily attacked Peter Borg for merely reporting the anti-slash policy of the Deliverance con, and has also attacked Judith for recommending courtesy toward gen-only fans such as yourself? Not to mention his earlier attack on me with a false claim that I share your views on homosexuality, which I most certainly do not. I don't call that intelligent or considerate behavior. Or are you talking about some other spin list? Sarah Thompson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 09:19:56 +1100 From: "Roger The Shrubber" To: "B7 Main List" Subject: [B7L] dorian crew Message-Id: <199801050742.SAA06683@budapest.ozonline.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jackie wrote Add a maniac like Dorian to the mix...... oh YES!! pleeeese, someone write the story! ***** Dorian could have been a powerful ally had he been persuaded to join the Blake side of the force ... his technical knowledge, general wisdom from being alive so long, his insanity, his willingness to kill - he would have fitted right in. Of course, it may be a problem deciding which job to give his pet gestalt. ___________________________________ ___________________________________ Darren r Comments are welcome ! powerplay@cheerful.com ____________________________________ Legal note - This message is void in China, USA, Iran and all other countries where free speech is prohibited by law. ______________________________________ "The Administration is out to get me" _______________________________________ "In the end, winning is the only safety" _________________________________________ "There are times when even confirmed cynics must trust to luck" ________________________________________ Was God an astronaut ? _________________________________________ http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/2634 Anxiety & Panic _________________________________________ http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/2634/powerplay.html Blake's 7 FAQ & other free stuff ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 11:54:23 +0000 (GMT) From: Iain Coleman To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Sex-- het mode Message-Id: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 5 Jan 1998 s.thompson8@genie.geis.com wrote: > > Erm, Iain, I think Alex just explained why an awful lot of women > think that men prefer stupid bimbos. Because they've had the > experience of being ditched by guys they liked for being too > intelligent, that's why. The notion that it's OK for a female to > be smart as long as she's not =too= smart is not very consoling > somehow, because how can one know where any given man is going to > draw the line? > Well, I guess I'll take your word for it, though it's not something I've ever seen happen. I suppose being consistently outclassed on a regular basis might get a bit dispiriting. Maybe it takes a certain level of self-esteem/arrogance on the guy's part not to worry about her being too smart? Probably what most people are after (in a long-term relationship) is an equal partner,including roughly similar intellectual capabilities. This may mean intelligent women being effectively forced to date arrogant intellectuals rather than charming hunks: as a member of the former category, I would certainly like to think so. Intelligence is such a hard thing to pin down, though. I guess what is more important (and more apparent) is the ability to think for oneself, make decisions, have opinions, that kind of thing. It comes down to respect. You can't really have a relationship with someone you don't respect, and I'm afraid simpering bimbos just don't cut it with me. It does get difficult at times, fighting off these hordes of beautiful girls desperate to be my devoted love slave, but somehow I manage to evade them. Iain ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 23:17:35 +1100 From: Ross Mallett To: blake7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Sex-- slash mode Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 5:58 AM +0000 5/1/98, s.thompson8@genie.geis.com wrote: >Kathryn's argument against slash based on statistical probability > is one that I've heard before in a somewhat different form. I once > had a lengthy private e-mail discussion with a friend who said > that, given that roughly about 10% of the general population is > primarily homosexual (though I agree with Steve that it's really > probably a bit more than that), she could accept =one= of the main > series characters being gay or bi, but not two. So the only slash > stories she found believable were the ones that involved some other > minor or original character! She liked the treatment of Avon's > bisexuality in the Hellhound stories for this very reason. > >However, it's important to remember that statistics only really > apply to large groups. 6 men, 5 women, and 3 AIs (the cast of > ongoing characters) is definitely not a statistically significant > sample. No, this is *totally* wrong. We are not trying to make predictions about the general population based upon the sample, but on the sample based upon the population. Therefore there is no such problem! Let's crank through the statistics. We'll exclude the AIs and make three reasonable assumptions: (1) That the 11 characters are a random sample; (2) That 10% of the general population is lesbigay; (3) That this is a binary trait -- one either is or isn't We can see from assumption (3) that the distribution is Binomial; for the purpose of calculation, we'll use Poisson's approximation, Pr(x=n) = exp(-m)*m**n/n! where n is the number of crewmen and m is the expected value (or mean). (* is multiplication, ** is exponentiation, ! is factorial and exp() is the exponential function). We can calculate the expected number as 11 x 10% = 1.1. This yields the following odds: n=0: There is a 33% chance that no character is lesbigay n=1: There is a 37% chance that one character is: n=2: There is a 20% chance that two characters are! n=3: There is a 7% chance that three characters are! n=4: There is even a 2% chance that four characters are! So I don't think your friend has done her math, because there is a 30% probability, which is quite large, that two or more characters are so inclined. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 12:20:58 +0100 GMT From: STEVE.ROGERSON@MCR1.poptel.org.uk To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re email junkie Message-Id: <19835034MCR1@MCR1.poptel.org.uk> Julie Horner said: "I have got another one: You include your Internet number as one of your BT Friends and Family numbers." I thought everyone did that! Julie added: "Snag with this is that if you win the holiday wouldn't you look really sad taking your PC and modem on a safari or something." I thought everyone did that as well. cheers Steve Rogerson Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption/ Make your own tribble! Buy a hamster and cut off its legs ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 12:21:48 +0100 GMT From: STEVE.ROGERSON@MCR1.poptel.org.uk To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Og-Gan Message-Id: <19835072MCR1@MCR1.poptel.org.uk> Pat P said: "ohmagawd! For a story that *no one's* ever written before, try: Og/Gan!" Don't tempt me. I would if I could work out a believable way Gan could still be alive when Og turned up. I'd probably get flamed though if I posted it on this list. cheers Steve Rogerson Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption/ Make your own tribble! Buy a hamster and cut off its legs ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 07:22:47 EST From: Bizarro7 To: space-city@world.std.com, blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Strazynski Gives Credit Message-ID: <2b3ec977.34b0d099@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit For those of you who didn't watch the B5 special "Making Of" on TNT yet, the creator of the show, JMS, credits "Blakes 7" first off and very explicitly as an influence and inspiration for Babylon 5. Annie and I cheered! Leah ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 12:50:04 +0000 From: Julia Jones To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Og-Gan Message-ID: <6ApexCA8bNs0Ew+0@jajones.demon.co.uk> In message <19835072MCR1@MCR1.poptel.org.uk>, STEVE.ROGERSON@MCR1.poptel .org.uk writes >Pat P said: "ohmagawd! For a story that *no one's* ever written >before, try: Og/Gan!" > >Don't tempt me. I would if I could work out a believable way >Gan could still be alive when Og turned up. I'd probably get >flamed though if I posted it on this list. > You had your chance on Space City when the thoroughly irreverent Black Round Robin was on the go. We haven't had any new episodes for a while, but we never officially buried it, so you can always drag Og out of Blake's room and along to wherever the Tarrant Nostra left Gan. -- Julia Jones "Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!" The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 00:12:09 +1100 From: Ross Mallett To: blake7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re Terminal, and an apology Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 9:41 AM +1100 31/12/97, Kathryn Andersen wrote: >On Tue, Dec 30, 1997 at 07:34:53AM -0500, AChevron wrote: >> And this may have been discussed before, but I haven't come across >>much on >> it. How exactly did Earth/the Federation/ the Conglomerates manage to build >> and then "lose" an entire artificial planet? I've not been able to develop a >> theory I'm comfortable with, and I find this question even more intriguing >> than how Servalan survived. > >Not only that, but (as I was discussing with Ross last night) >- how did Dorian know about Terminal? >- how did Dorian know that the Liberator was going to be there? >- Since it seemed obvious that he was expecting the Liberator to be >intact, what devious plan did he originally have for "persuading" the crew >to come to Xenon? What does Dorian know about Terminal? Dorian: And I know this is Terminal. I know it's an artificially modified planet. I know that underneath the surface there's a load of valuable gear waiting to be stripped out. This, we know, is absolutely true. Dorian also knows a lot about the crew: Tarrant: You've laid out seven glasses. One too many. Vila: Not to worry. I'll drink the extra one. Dayna: You know if Cally had escaped with us, there wouldn't be an extra one. He knows more than that: Dorian: That's close enough. (coughs) One of the group was killed before I got there. But the group remains. Bound together by time and pain and the need to survive. The death of the telepath will make it more difficult. But they can still be used. (coughs) So here's my theory! Dorian has been eavesdropping on the Federation communications. How he did this is a good question. I like Gareth's idea about the Tariel Cells. Why did he do it? Its possible that he really is interested in Terminal for its scrap value and has been listening in on the entire plot and has picked up all the details about the planet, the plan and the Liberator crew. Anyhow, Dorian's impressed by Servalan's clever planning and reckons the plan is near foolproof. He figures that Servalan will waste no time taking the Liberator somewhere more interesting and under the plan, the crew are left stranded on the planet at the end. So Dorian figures they will gratefully accept a lift back to Xenon. He realises that they might decide to beat him up and steal the ship, but he is gambling on them kidnapping him. He doesn't allow for Orac, which he expects to find in its new location on Servalan's desk. As to how long ago Ensor went into hiding, from Orac: ZEN: It appears that Ensor took a vacation on a frontier planet. While there he suffered a massive heart attack. Medical facilities were primitive. The only available transplant was a mechanical heart powered by microcells. They have a life of about forty Earth years. BLAKE: All of which happened about forty years ago. CALLY: But didn't they substitute an organic unit once he got back? BLAKE: That's just the point, he never did get back. He disappeared. He and his four year old son simply vanished. They've never been heard of since. From Rescue: Avon: Orac was the culmination of his life's work. (Avon pulls out Orac's key) He bequeathed it to an associate of mine... who bequeathed it to me. You must have been very young when you met Ensor. Dorian: Must I? Avon: He spent the last twenty years of his life in hiding. Dorian: Well, then I must have been very young. The two episodes are in contradiction here. It doesn't foillow that Ensor immediately went into hiding but gee, to take twenty years to get around to something! Also, his son looks older than 24 but maybe Hovell's Radiation.. Actually, Kathryn came up with another mystery of Terminal: its location. From the eponymous episode: AVON: [V.O.] Zen, nearest planet capable of supporting carbon-based life. ZEN: [V.O.] Disentastra. AVON: [V.O.] Transit time at standard by eight. ZEN: [V.O.] Ninety-six hours, seventeen minutes, and four point three zero three seconds. However, it sure doesn't take them four days to fly to Xenon! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 10:06:44 -0500 From: Susan Beth To: blake7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Sex-- slash mode Message-Id: <3.0.4.32.19980105100644.0068ea6c@world.std.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" s.thompson8@genie.geis.com wrote: >Kathryn's argument against slash based on statistical probability > is one that I've heard before in a somewhat different form. I once > had a lengthy private e-mail discussion with a friend who said > that, given that roughly about 10% of the general population is > primarily homosexual (though I agree with Steve that it's really > probably a bit more than that), she could accept =one= of the main > series characters being gay or bi, but not two. So the only slash > stories she found believable were the ones that involved some other > minor or original character! She liked the treatment of Avon's > bisexuality in the Hellhound stories for this very reason. > >However, it's important to remember that statistics only really > apply to large groups. 6 men, 5 women, and 3 AIs (the cast of > ongoing characters) is definitely not a statistically significant > sample. Given that, and the fact that the Beeb was so reticent > about sex in general on what was supposed to be at least partly a > children's show, I think we can pretty much postulate whatever we > please. For me, looking at all the different possibilities is a > big part of the fun of fannish erotica. Besides that point, there's also the likelihood that someone who feels/is outside the "norm" of his society sexually is more likely to step/be forced outside it in other ways, and therefore the percentages of bi/gays might be quite a bit higher in the subset criminals/political rebels. It would be quite easy to invent pasts for most of the characters in which their homosexual/bisexual *played a role* in their ending up in the crew. Let's see.... Blake. As a young boy he realized he was gay, and that according to his society this was wrong. After much agonizing, he comes to the conclusion that anything that came that naturally to him *couldn't* be wrong, therefore Society's restrictions against it were wrong. Now that his eyes were opened to the arbitrariness of the society, he started noticing other ways in which the Feds were wrong/not living up to how things should be, and set out to agitate for reforms. Avon. As a young boy he realized he was gay, and quickly figured out that if this became known not even his brilliance with computers would protect his job/social standing. Therefore he decided preemptively to use his skills to gain him so much wealth that it would insulate him from that danger. Vila. Besides tendencies towards crime, perhaps the Feds also seize on that excuse to eliminate "deviant" sexual impulses while they "adjust" the minds of criminals. Since one's sexuality is such a deeply ingrained, beyond conscious control, thing (which I do believe, btw) *that* part always failed on Vila, and the cracks in the conditioning led to all the rest of it coming apart as well. Therefore Vila is a residual criminal and ends up on the London BECAUSE he was bi. Jenna. Her distaste for heterosexuality led to her rejecting the "normal" path of marriage/children. This left her free to indulge her taste for a more exciting path as a Life On The Edge Of Things smuggler. Cally. Like Blake, her gayness was the first thing that brought her "difference" from the rest into her consciousness. Once you've "rebelled" against society in one way, it's easier to follow your own conscience vs. Society's teachings in other ways. Not being a natural pacifist, shortly she found herself looking for a less contented group to hang out with, and therefore is off Auronar fighting and available to be recruited. Tarrant. We never get the background of his leaving the Fed service, do we? Given his evident skill, and the possession of the usual "military virtues" of courage, devotion to duty, group spirit and all that, shouldn't he have fitted in just fine? So.....couldn't he have fallen afoul of a version of Don't Ask, Don't Tell? Soolin. Much like Cally -- the idea of a sedate life as wife to a farmer held zero appeal both for reasons of sex and combativeness. Gan. I'm not inclined to invent a bi/gay past for him, unless you want to consider his whole story about the death of his woman a lie and that the limiter was really aimed at controlling sexual deviancy. (Hmmm. Actually, I've read that some convicted rapists, especially child molesters, tell their fellow inmates that they are murderers instead -- they get higher status/less opprobrium that way.) Dayna. She basically didn't have a society to react against, so she falls outside this game. Mind, I'm not saying I believe any of these backgrounds IS true, I just want to point out that it isn't unbelievable that a random scoop of criminals & rebels would have a higher percentage of non-heterosexuality than the general population PROVIDED that non-heterosexuality is discriminated against by their society. Susan Beth (sbs@world.std.com) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 17:17:20 -0000 From: "Heather Smith" To: "Blake's 7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Og-Gan Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve said > Don't tempt me. I would if I could work out a believable way > Gan could still be alive when Og turned up. I'd probably get > flamed though if I posted it on this list. Please! Write it! Write it now! Getting thinking boyoh! Heather 'can't think of a clever quote to go here' Smith 'There's no point in being grown up if you can't be childish' -The fourth Doctor ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 13:56:24 -0500 (EST) From: NWOutsider To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: Re: [B7L] The Way Back 4/4 Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 4 Jan 1998, Pat Patera wrote: > Wow. Sue, what are you on? And where can I get some? Woo hoo! Someone actually read it! 8-) The Space Fall comments won't be as long. What I'm on is a complex chemical compound...more of a process, actually...created by drinking large quantities of coffee and Diet Pepsi (separately) throughout the day and equally large quantities of cheap white wine (I favor Almaden's Big Box o' Booze (TM)) in the evening. > PS. Yes, Jenna and Vila would be great story partners Glad you like it. 8-) Sue sclerc@bgnet.bgsu.edu http://www.bgsu.edu/~sclerc/Blakes7.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 19:25:31 +1100 From: Kathryn Andersen To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: Re: [B7L] "Out of death was I born...." Message-ID: <19980105192531.33400@welkin.apana.org.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Sun, Jan 04, 1998 at 09:17:01PM +0000, Meredith Dixon wrote: > On Sun, 4 Jan 1998 13:47:08 +1100, Kathryn Andersen wrote: > > >A whole bag of Gens? Maybe they were Liliputian Gens. > >And to think, Avon and Tarrant were secretly Simes all this time! > >Hmmm, puts another slant on that "kiss of death" don't it? > > Avon's a Sime, no question, and Tarrant and Cally and Vila are quick > and graceful enough to be Simes too. > > Gan and Blake are definitely Gens, and when Blake gets worked up about > something he influences the ambient nager on the Liberator. This is > why Avon keeps feeling that Blake is manipulating them...he is. > Whether he's doing so consciously or unconsciously can be decided by > your interpretation of Blake. I agree, Avon is Sime and Blake is definitely Gen; Avon, of course, is attracted to Blake as a transfer partner; they're probably closely matched. Which accounts for their whole interdependence and Avon's ambivalence towards Blake; he doesn't *want* to be dependent on Blake, but he is. You're right, Gan is definitely a Gen; he's got Gen build and Gen emotional stability, and a caring nature. > I'm less sure about the others. I think Jenna must be Sime also, > otherwise the Blake-Avon-Jenna dynamic of the first season wouldn't > work out well at all. (I know I just said I don't care for explicit > sex, but I can just see a story in which Avon and Jenna (nearly?) > come to blows because they both want to take transfer from Blake.) > > Hm. There's a problem here, though. That gives us Avon, Jenna, Cally > and Vila as Simes, and only Gan and Blake as Gens. And I can't see > any of those four as a channel, can you? Cally's definitely a Sime. > Avon's definitely a Sime. So either Jenna or Vila has to be Gen. I > guess it's got to be Jenna after all; in a Sime-Gen world, I can't see > a Gen succeeding as a thief. Hmmm. I hadn't thought about it, but I guess Cally *would* have to be a Sime; her whole my-people-are-quick thing, her thin-and-fast-ness point her to be a Sime. But I also felt that Cally *did* contribute to the stability of the group when she was there - so maybe she's a channel. A very strong and sensitive Channel (ties in with her telepathy, neh?) Gypsy-trained, of course! (-8 I don't really see why Vila couldn't be a Gen, though. Or are you saying that without Sime senses, there's no way he could be as excellent a thief as he is? Hmmm. He doesn't *feel* like a Sime, though. > So, Avon, Cally, and Vila are Simes, Blake, Jenna and Gan are Gens. > Orac doesn't affect the equation, but Gan's death certainly does. > They probably raid off-ship while they're looking for Star One. > At the start of the third season, we still have Avon, Cally and Vila, > and they're joined by Tarrant and Dayna. Tarrant's a Sime, and I'd > assume that weapons-specialist Dayna is also. And naturally Soolin > is, too. This in itself goes a long way toward explaining the > difference between the first two seasons and the second two...first > and second season, they're a balanced set of transfer partners; third > and fourth seasons they're a hunting pack of Sime raiders. Dayna doesn't need to be a Sime; just because she designs weapons doesn't mean she has to be Sime. I expect Hal Mellanby was Gen. I propose this for the third season; Avon and Tarrant are Simes, Cally is a Channel, I'm not sure about Vila and Dayna. When Cally died, the situation became less stable, because they'd lost their one strong Channel, so they *did* have to raid. Servalan, of course, is Sime. > You know, this *works*. :) Frightening, isn't it. (-8 Kathryn Andersen (who hasn't read House of Zeor for years, and doesn't have her copy any more) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- "As ever, Dayna. Gaudy but effective." -- Del Tarrant remarking on a new gun (Blake's 7: Death Watch [C12]) -- _--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen / \ | http://connexus.apana.org.au/~kat \_.--.*/ | #include "std/disclaimer.h" v | ------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 21:02:17 +0000 From: Russ Massey To: Iain Coleman Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Slash debate Message-ID: In message , Iain Coleman writes > >I told myself I wouldn't get involved. But then, > >On Wed, 31 Dec 1997, NWOutsider wrote: > >> Since the original author of the pieces Russ has been posting is not >> on this list, I haven't responded to any them--the guy's not here, why >> bother. But here we have Russ's own opinion and since Russ is here... >> >> Tue, 23 Dec 1997 Russ Massey wrote: >> >> >As I understand it, Neil's main objection is that in order to accomodate >> >the tropes of a slash story the characters have to be distorted beyond >> >recognition. Broadly I tend to agree. >> >> I gave up reading fan fic because I got tired of the many stories that >> distort the characters beyond recognition: The sweet, sensitive Avons; the >> genius Vilas; the stupid, naive Blakes; the evil, devious Blakes; the >> omniscient Avons; the homicidally jealous Jennas. Needless to say, these >> show up with equal frequency in gen and slash. An intense relationship >> between Blake and Avon is a given: it's there on screen. > >This is where the problem starts for me (and perhaps for Russ and Neil >too). > Indeed. Distortion of character is the one unforgivable sin that causes me to stop reading whatever I'm reading and discard it, no matter how gripping the plot, or entrhalling the theme or portic the language. Of course, no author ever sees a character exactly the same way, so every reader draws the line in a different place... >I have a few male friends with whom I have a close, intense relationship. >These relationships are in no way sexual. > >I find it very difficult to write about this, because I don't think the >vocabulary exists yet. The Iron John drumming-in-the-woods stuff is maybe >an attempt to find such a vocabulary, but it doesn't quite come off. > >Avon and Blake obviously, so obviously don't have a sexual relationship >because they so obviously have a strong, close bond between them that is >of a completely different character. > I think that's a good way of saying something that I couldn't quite put my finger on. >Now I'm straight, but I can imagine what it would be like to think of men >the way I think of women. I can imagine being sexually attracted to men: >in fact, I can think of a few men who I would almost certainly fancy if I >were gay. I can imagine falling in love with a man. > >Close friendship is just as deep, just as intense, just as important. But >it is fundamentally different, not just sexual-love-without-sex. > >I can believe Blake is gay. I can believe Avon is bi. But I cannot believe >they have sex with each other because I _know_ the kind of relationship >they have, I've _been_ there and it just wasn't like that. But then I can imagine their relationship gradually changing due to the events of a story so that they *would* have sex with each other. It just has to be a damn convincing story and probably quite a lengthy one so that the character growth isn't too rushed as to be unconvincing. > Bloodless >revolutions and other silly plots not only aren't in the same league of >wrongness, they're in a completely different sport. Blake being naive >violates his character, the good guys winning without cost violates the >tone of the series, but Blake and Avon shagging violates everything I know >about relationships between two men. > >I have a background in cosmology, which means I'm comfortable with making >sweeping statements based on small-number statistics, knowing that I could >be making a total arse of myself. There seems to be a definite gender >division on this point. I think women generally just don't grasp this kind >of relationship. I think that's why slash seems to be written largely by >and for women. > I think the key phrase in Neil's article was his musing on men being emotionally 'mis-humanised' in slash in a similar way that women are physically and mentally dehumanised in male-written porn. It might be less offensive to the men being distorted, but it still makes me raise an eyebrow in the same way I do when someone writes about a 40lb broadsword. >I was reluctant to enter this discussion, because it's the sort of subject >where people can seriously offend each other without meaning to. You're not kidding! I've been surprised at the level of ire generated by what was (to my mind) a moderately well-reasoned and fairly inoffensive musing on the nature of slash. Neil would certainly not have taken offense at any of the comments (and I'll send him copies, so I'll let you know if I'm wrong about that), but it's a pity that he's not here to be able to expand on and defend his views - something I'm certainly not qualified to do, even assuming I agreed with everything he said. One thing I can definitely state. At no time was he advocating censorship of any form of fan fiction. Suggestions that he was are incorrect. -- Russ Massey ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 21:16:58 -0000 From: "Jennifer Beavan" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] "Out of death was I born...." Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Isn't there a Sime/Gen B/A in the old Liberator fantasies? Jennifer -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V98 Issue #4 ************************************