From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V98 #261 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume98/261 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 261 Today's Topics: Re: [B7L] BBC choice Re: [B7L] Seven Vices Re: [B7L] Seven Vices Re: [B7L] Seven Vices Re: [B7L] New Series? Re: [B7L] Seven Vices [B7L] Re: Seven Vices [B7L] Question... Re: [B7L] Seven Vices [B7L] New Series? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 21:28:59 +0100 From: "Dangermouse" To: "Judith Proctor" , "Lysator List" Subject: Re: [B7L] BBC choice Message-Id: <199810132035.VAA16172@gnasher.sol.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Dear Blake's 7 fans.... > > An Invitation from the BBC. > > BBC Choice, the BBC's new digital channel is making a theme night for next > January called 'Over the Moon'. Why not bloody do it on a station that more than three people can actuallyw atch - there'll probably be more people turn up at the filming than can recieve the damn channel! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 15:47:31 -0500 From: "Lorna B." To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Seven Vices Message-Id: <199810132048.PAA03332@pemberton.magnolia.net> Carol Mc. said: >"Risk" being the operative word. Avon was willing to risk his life for all of >his shipmates. Most definitely. He's put himself out for people other than Blake plenty of times. I mean, he's put out for... Well, you know what I mean. >Why wouldn't he have been able to toss Blake if he was willing to toss Vila? >Avon was able to shoot Blake in BLAKE. There was no indication that Blake's >presence caused Avon's survival instincts to diminish. Tossing Blake might >even be easier for Avon. Vila didn't want to be on the shuttle. He was there >because Avon ordered him on the mission. If it were Blake and Avon, it would >more likely be Blake who got them into it, giving Avon a much less conscience- >pricking reason to put himself first. I have no trouble picturing Avon being able to toss *anyone* off the shuttle. It was just that kind of situation, one that triggers one of the most primal of adrenaline rushes--survival. Avon was running on instinct, in other words. I don't think he had time to consider personalities here. And I certainly don't see that Avon would find it *easier* to pitch Vila than he would anyone else. Aside from the fact that Vila certainly would be less of a strain to lift and carry to the airlock than would Blake... ;-) Lorna B. "Cookies and porn? You're the best mom ever!" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 18:20:00 EDT From: Mac4781@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Seven Vices Message-ID: <9abf036a.3623d210@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Judith wrote: > He took bigger risks for Blake then anyone else. 'Terminal' is the only case > of him heading into something he expected to be a trap. Not really. He chased after Cancer, knowing that to be a trap. He also believed the Zerok gold scheme was a trap. He also suspected Egrorian! But let's talk about Terminal. Are you telling me that he wouldn't have gone to Terminal if it was one of the others in similar danger? > He was able to shot him in 'Blake' because he thought he had been betrayed. > That was not the normal relationship between them. The shuttle wasn't a normal relationship moment either. That was a frightened, panicked Avon. Not the Avon we saw in first, second seasons. The fact that he was so quick to believe that Blake betrayed him doesn't indicate a great deal of trust or devotion to me. He took Tarrant's word over Blake's "Tarrant doesn't understand." Tarrant's words were all the proof Avon had that Blake betrayed him. > The classic scene for me is when Avon (who had > stated > that he didn't give a damn about the Decimas if it was a choice between them > and > the Liberator) refuses to hand over the power cells. It's Blake who cracks, > even though Avon is the one threatened. Avon doesn't crack in Terminal when Servalan has a gun to his head and demands he turn over Liberator and his shipmates. Avon tells Vila to get the hell out of there. Avon had his moments of stubborn heroics. Both in THE WEB and in TERMINAL I think it was as much that he didn't want to give in to intimidation as it was a heroic/protective gesture. > It's also an epiaode where Avon is given to doing things like pushing Blake > out of the way of explosions. Again, would he only have done that for Blake? If it had been Gan, would he have run the other way? Or just taken care of himself? > It did. Consider the risks he took in episodes like 'pressure Point'. He > knew Blake was holding out on them, but he still went. He went to Ultraworld to retrieve Cally although he knew they were walking into unknown dangers. Then he stayed by Cally's side when he says quite clearly that he doesn't trust the Ultra. He ends up getting his brain sucked for his efforts, but he never indicates that he regretted the risks he took on Cally's behalf. As I've said, he took risks for all of his shipmates. Blake wasn't unique in that respect. > Not necessarily. Avon was quite capable of coming up with bad ideas on his > own. > Mind you, he did tend more towards being sacrificial when he felt guilty. > 'Hostage' another episode where he's taking risks on Blake's behalf, is when > Avon is well aware that much of the danger is of his own making. Except that he is responsible for Vila's being on the shuttle and he is willing to dump him. So even if it were Avon's responsibility that Blake was on the shuttle with him, I can't see that he'd behave differently. I don't think Avon cared more about Blake than about Vila. He was willing to leave Blake without backup in GAMBIT so he could go off and play with Vila. > Pressure Point is a good example where Avon puts his arms round Blake while > telling him that there's nothing > there in the control room. And Avon shows tender compassion for Dayna when they find Lauren. I don't think that would have stopped him from spacing Dayna in ORBIT, if she weighed enough to make a difference. He takes Tarrant's arm above the elbow (said to be a very intimate place to grip someone) when he's talking to Tarrant after Deeta died. Which doesn't stop me from believing that he'd have spaced Tarrant. > Trial is another classic. He virtually talks the entire crew into being > willing to abandon Blake, then goes and rescues him. And he tries to say he isn't willing to go to ULTRAWORLD to rescue Cally, and he isn't keen on going to help Auron. Avon often failed to live up to his own bad press releases. It wasn't just for Blake. > If he had ever wanted Liberator > for his own, he could have taken it in that episode and none of te other > crew members would have stopped him. That's not really Avon's style. A much better example of how he would separate himself from Blake, if and when he was ready, is BREAKDOWN. He sets himself up with a bolthole. And notice that he's willing to give the teleport system as a payment for his independence. That's not showing an inclination to protect Blake. > With Avon and Blake, nothing is ever quite as it seems. With Avon, what you see is seldom what it seems. I don't think Avon quite knows himself at times. But what he was was basically a good man. When it came down to deciding between right and wrong, he normally leaned toward right. When he panicked and leaned toward VERY WRONG, his emotions wouldn't have reacted any differently no matter who was with him. Carol Mc ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 12:25:53 -0700 From: Pat Patera To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Seven Vices Message-ID: <36210641.AF6@geocities.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rob Clother wrote: > I agree with Alison on this -- the Seven Vices can be strengths as well > as weaknesses. However, I'll contradict Alison directly now, and > suggest that Soolin would have had two main vices: anger and envy. It's Pat who is the acolyte at the Temple of Soolin. > ...in > case anyone ever asks me, sums up the difference between jealousy and > envy. It also makes me wonder why envy is listed as one of the Seven > Vices, rather than jealousy. So what is the difference between envy and jealousy? And is there a difference between vices and sins? You use the two interchangeably. The 7 deadly sins tend to harm oneself rather than others, while the last 7 of the 10 commandments are injunctions against harming others (lie, kill, steal, sass yer mum, etc.) Who "invented" the 7 deadly sins, anyway? Some medieviel monk? > ... I think I saw someone who might just possibly make a > realistic partner for Soolin: Carnell, from the episode "Weapon". no no no. Carnell would want someone far brainier. I don't see Soolin in his class at all. She has street smarts rather than the introspective intellegisia he exhibits. Also, she is far too physical for Carnell. She is quick and athletic, while he is slow and lethargic. They have nothing in common. Plus, Carnell would always be trying to psychoanalyze her, which would drive a private person like Soolin crazy. She does not want to be known, and she does not want to be "fixed." And she certainly does not want to be manipulated. Cally might not mind Carnell. With her telephathy, she'd have an edge to match his edge: they could psychoanalyze one another ad nauseum. Now Del Grant, there's a possibility for Soolin. They'd make a great mercenary team: equally smart, savy, sassy and with the same shared values (or lack thereof). Of course, I actually want to see Soolin with Avon. Their weaknesses dovetail so perfectly, they would have empathy for the nastiness of one another. Or kill one another. Whatever. >I have reasons, but I won't elaborate on them here. aw, go ahead. Rob, since when have you ever been shy? > Because Soolin was such an ambiguous character, she is one of the best > candidates for a major figure in fan fiction. So why is she absent so often? Or undeveloped? > An interpretation of her > character and her motives involves as much creation as analysis. That's why: creation is hard; it's much easier to take given characteristics and rehash the character interactions already portrayed for us. > Perhaps, instead of wasting my time posting to the list for the next few > months, I'll waste my time writing a post-GP (or a GP-never-happened) > story instead Be sure to write in lots of Soolin - yum. And post it to the list as you go. Pat P ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 08:03:02 -0500 (CDT) From: Tegan To: "Blake's Seven" Subject: Re: [B7L] New Series? Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 13 Oct 1998, Andy Smith wrote: > In Dreamwatch I have just read about a new series with a beautiful and > powerful three-pronged space ship with a crew of six. One in charge, one > technical 'wizard' a telepath, a thief... And apparently there is a > strange box that they talk to now and then for advice. > > The series is Crusade, the follow-up to Babylon 5. Does anybody think > that J. Michael is taking his love of B7 a little too far? About as much as I think he's taken his fandom of Lord of the Rings too far, ancient mythology too far, the Prisoner too far... If JMS were using these people as renegade freedom fighters trying to bring down the totalitarian government of Earth, I might agree with you. He's already done this though, and that was based on a station and had the help of at least 3 completely "alien" governments. The premise of the show is that they're searching for a cure for this virus that is mutating and will kill everyone in 5 years, because the researchers don't think they can figure it out in time. When you have a mission, it's usually good to have someone in charge, you know, to coordinate things, make sure you don't get sidetracked. I'd say that 99% of science fiction has _someone_ in charge. As for the wizard (or technomage as they're called in B5) It's not like he seems to be able to fix everything. He uses technology to have the appearance of magic. Three-D recording appearing in his hand with a flash of fire, stuff like that. The theif, she's an "alien" (if i'm remembering which one it is) who's out for revenge against the race that basically exterminated her own. Telepaths are also extremely common in science fiction, and just a handy thing to have. In anycase, you also didn't mention that there is a medical officer who's trying to figure out the cure while they're on this quest, and well, the wellbeing of billions of humans are on her shoulders. There's somone from the corporations who's out looking for anything that might make a profit while he's helping this crew. Finally the box. We don't know what this box is for, if Dreamwatch said that Captain Gideon talks to it, well, they've also been known to be grieviously wrong when it comes to B5. It's called an Armageddon box, however. Only the captain knows about it at first, and it's his burden, not his boon. Yes, when I saw the drawings (and later renderings) of the Excaliber, I thought "Liberator." I also recognize that it's a natural progression from the Minbari cruisers. The simliarities to B7 are fairly superficial, I think, and JMS is just using interesting group dynamics (yes, they are also not going to get along). I don't think he's "paying homage" to B7, he's complained about comparisons going waaaaay too far with other shows as it is and he's very protective of what he feels is his artistic property. Sorry I seem to have ranted about all that, but I'm a big fan of both shows. Now, please tell me I'm wrong and more of why they're similar, just don't tell JMS. :) back to lurkhood, tegan (*) tegan@goddess.coe.missouri.edu http://goddess.coe.missouri.edu/~tegan "Vir, intelligence has nothing to do with politics." - Londo, Point of No Return ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 09:21:20 EDT From: AChevron@aol.com To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Seven Vices Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/12/98 4:41:25 PM Central Daylight Time, Tigerm1019@aol.com writes: << As for Travis, didn't he envy anyone who was whole and undamaged? I thought the reason he hated Blake so much was that he held Blake responsible for his mutilation. Also, it seemed to me that he had a consuming envy of anyone who wasn't on Servalan's leash. >> I've always thought that Travis' motivations were a bit more complex than that. After all, he could have had most of the damage repaired or cosmetically covered, but elected not to do so. In fact, I think part of his reason for hating Blake is the fact that Blake, as an enemy, survived. From what I've seen, he's firmly in the school of the "only good enemy is a dead enemy." Blake survives, and even becomes a model citizen, seeming to refute that philosophy. Thus he builds up years of resentment and hatred. Then Blake gets hold of Liberator and once again threatens those things that he has fought for his entire career. Now his resentment and anger have a chance to be released. Add to this the fact that while Blake is proving annoyingly successful, his own career is now hanging on the whim of Servalan. No wonder he shows such hatred for Blake. I'm not sure I see the consuming envy of people not under Servalan's control. Sure, he doesn't like his position powerwise with her. But essentially everyone is either under Servalan's control or having to face the consequences of that; namely being harrassed, attacked, blackmailed, etc. My own take is that he identified her with the Federation; thus his sometimes reluctant assistance to some of her more obvious powerplays(Orac, for instance). D. Rose ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 10:34:29 -0400 From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" Subject: [B7L] Re: Seven Vices Message-ID: <199810141034_MC2-5CA5-99DE@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit TigerM wrote: > As for Travis, didn't he envy anyone who was whole and undamaged? More complicated than that, isn't it, as it's indicated that he could have had his injuries more fully treated, but chose to keep the eyepatch etc to heighten his rage against Blake? Which suggests that the injuries merely symbolise the reasons for his hatred of Blake, which is rooted somewhere deeper. You may be meaning "whole and undamaged psychologically", of course. Harriet ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 12:41:33 EDT From: SuzanThoms@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se, space-city@world.std.com Subject: [B7L] Question... Message-ID: <62a2dfd6.3624d43d@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hello... Could anyone tell me if the Enararre zines are slash or gen. I would very much appreciate it. Thank you, Suzanne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 12:54:25 PDT From: "Rob Clother" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Seven Vices Message-ID: <19981014195427.20895.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Pat: >So what is the difference between envy and jealousy? It was summed up well by Alison: jealousy implies you want to claim something as your own: if you're jealous of someone's success, you feel it's yours by right, and that right extends to no one else. If you're envious, you feel motivated to emulate their success, without necessarily resenting it. >And is there a difference between vices and sins? You use the two >interchangeably. A vice is something you have: a character trait of some kind. A sin is something you do. You can --have-- lustful thoughts, which constitues a vice, but you haven't sinned until you've actually gone out and committed adultery. >Who "invented" the 7 deadly sins, anyway? Some medieviel monk? Yep. St Thomas Aquinas. On to Carnell and Soolin: >no no no. Carnell would want someone far brainier. I don't see >Soolin in his class at all. She has street smarts rather than the >introspective intellegisia he exhibits. Also, she is far too physical >for Carnell. She is quick and athletic, while he is slow and >lethargic. They have nothing in common. Well, there is one thing Carnell can give Soolin that none of the other candidates couldn't: he can make her feel like she's living in a better world than she actually is. He's got the right blend of intelligence and charm. Also, this is a man who crossed Servalan (if only accidentally) and survived. He's smart enough to look after himself, so Soolin would never have to feel responsible for him. Spending time with him would be pure escapism -- and that would go down rather well for her. >Plus, Carnell would always be trying to psychoanalyze her, >which would drive a private person like Soolin crazy. She does not >want to be known, and she does not want to be "fixed." And she >certainly does not want to be manipulated. The thing is, you're always manipulated when you're with a lover. That's what makes them your lover -- when you're with them, everything looks different. They alter the way your mind works, and if you can't stand that, you can't stand having a lover at all. I don't think there are many people who lack the capacity to take a lover: I certainly don't think Soolin is one of them. Now who better to do the manpulation than Carnell? She'd be his lover, not his patient. The only psychoanalysis that would be going on would be inside his head. He'd work out what Soolin liked, what she needed, and when she needed it. And he'd deliver it with a style and subtlety that would disarm her completely. >Now Del Grant, there's a possibility for Soolin. They'd make a great >mercenary team: equally smart, savy, sassy and with the same shared >values (or lack thereof). Of course, I actually want to see Soolin >with Avon. Their weaknesses dovetail so perfectly, they would have >empathy for the nastiness of one another. Or kill one another. >Whatever. Again, there's one missing link here: Soolin is not necessarily happy with the life she's led so far. Nor is she unhappy: what she does is in her nature. But being the complicated person she is, I can't see her staying in one gear --all-- the time. Tarrant, yes. Vila, yes. Avon, yes. Soolin: I think Soolin thrives on change, and constant change between her lover and the rest of her life would suit her down to the ground. Cheers, -- Rob ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 21:31:26 +0100 From: Andy Smith To: "Blake's Seven" Subject: [B7L] New Series? Message-ID: <3623B89D.2A521E77@dircon.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In Dreamwatch I have just read about a new series with a beautiful and powerful three-pronged space ship with a crew of six. One in charge, one technical 'wizard' a telepath, a thief... And apparently there is a strange box that they talk to now and then for advice. The series is Crusade, the follow-up to Babylon 5. Does anybody think that J. Michael is taking his love of B7 a little too far? Andy -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V98 Issue #261 **************************************