From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V98 #258 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume98/258 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 258 Today's Topics: [B7L] Orbit, Vila, and stuff Re: [B7L] re: Double Standards [B7L] Re: Sins Re: [B7L] re: Double Standards Re: [B7L] Killing characters (was Tarrant, Soolin) Re: [B7L] Tarrant, Soolin, damnit, the whole crew if need be! Re: [B7L] re: Double Standards [B7L] Double Standards [B7L] Gareth in Nottingham [B7L] Standards and Sins Re: [B7L] Re: Sins ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 10:08:26 EDT From: Mac4781@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Orbit, Vila, and stuff Message-ID: <1a4bc5f5.361f6a5a@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit More catching up... Deborah wrote: > The more I thought about it, the more I realize that the true horror of > Orbit is not just that Avon is ready to kill Vila, but that he does so just > after we've seen him and Avon sharing comaraderie that brings back to mind > 2nd series. I'm not sure what this is referring to (some camaraderie that was shared in ORBIT?) but then I'm obviously not as focused on the Avon-Vila relationship as you are. When I look at Avon (or any of them) I tend to see more of the overall dynamics. Avon had times when he was quite at ease with many of his shipmates; and times when he was sharp and/or nasty to the same shipmate (including Vila). Avon had a unique and special relationship with each shipmate (as most of us probably have more than one friend, each of whom provides a unique sort of camaraderie). > It's one of the few times in 4th series that we see the two bantering > extensively, and where they interact one on one. To me, it just makes the > whole episode that muchmore heartbreaking. Any thoughts? My favorite moments of Avon-Vila bantering in season 4 aren't in ORBIT. I liked the easy bantering of ANIMALS (when Vila is begging for the wine as a reward for cleaning the glycolene tank). And in GOLD when they are deciding on how much to ask for the black gold is quite cute. I guess that leaves me to conclude that I don't see special heartbreak in ORBIT because of bantering. It's the situation that I find more heartbreaking than the target; Avon would have been prepared to toss anyone weighing enough off the shuttle at that point. It wasn't anything personal against Vila. Jackie wrote (and I'm transposing two quotes here): > He doesnt. I can be argumentatively against any and all of the crew, > including Avon. A little while ago I had a go at Blake, and got my tail > shot off for my troubles (:-)). It`s just *fun* to shake the cage every > once in a while don`t you think? :-) Actually, no, I find cage shaking to be confusing. Unless accompanied by a smiley or worded in an obviously tongue-in-cheek manner, I presume that statements are meant to be taken seriously. And I expect the person who makes the statement to be sincere in his/her belief and prepared to back it up with canonical references. Until now, I had been taking your statements seriously. For instance, I asked you for examples to back your claim that Avon protected Vila from Tarrant and never got them. Should I presume that was just cage shaking and not meant to be taken seriously? What about the following? Serious or cage shaking? > After all with Tarrant forever picking on him on the Ship, Could you please provide canonical references that show Tarrant was forever picking on Vila on the ship? It's the "forever" that I'd challenge, because it presumes that was the only way Tarrant treated Vila, when in fact the two shared an easy camaraderie often enough to presume they were on friendly terms. But I'm not going to bother providing those references until you provide yours. > Just exactly who on the Liberator accepted Vila. Dayna didn`t like him. > Tarrant bullied him, Jenna didn`t like him (she was alpha, he was delta, > nothing personal), Here's another statement that I'm not sure I understand. What makes you think Dayna and Jenna didn't like Vila? Are there incidents in the series that support this claim? Is this serious or broad exaggeration? Judith wrote: > A possible alternative interpretation (I was watching 'Hornblower' last night; > it was darn good and made me think of this possibility) is that Vila had > reached > the point where he didn't care any more. Rather like Hornblower going into > the duel, he looked on it as a win win situation. If Tarrant shot him, he was > out of his misery. If Tarrant didn't shoot him, then he'd gained a victory of > sorts and would never fear Tarrant so much again. I didn't get any sense that Vila was anywhere near that despondent at that point. There was no indication of brooding or depression earlier in the episode that might suggest he'd reached that level of despair. He's cheerfully passing out drinks and snoozing in Tarrant's flight seat. He seems calm and relaxed rather than someone who is close to reaching the end of his rope. Tigerm wrote: > I don't think it's a matter of his crewmates not liking Vila, I think it's a > matter of their not liking some of his behavior. Vila DID have some > dangerous > and objectionable habits and not just from Tarrant's point of view (i.e. > sleeping on watch and getting drunk on duty). Ah, yes, good evaluation of crew dynamics. > This was apparent even in the > first and second seasons. I haven't seen the episode yet but I recall > something about Vila taking off to go on a bender in "Shadow." A bender that proved to have fatal consequences. While the fatality was not something Vila could have predicted, it was his hangover that set it up. He returns to the ship not feeling well which leads to even patient Gan getting frustrated with Vila: GAN: Vila! Get back to the teleport. VILA: Five minutes. I must get something for my head. GAN: You can't leave the teleport now. VILA: Five minutes. GAN: Don't be stupid. VILA: My head is killing me. GAN: And you may be killing Blake and the others. VILA: All right. [He inserts Orac's key] Orac, operate the teleport as instructed. Satisfied? If Orac hadn't had the key put in at that moment, Hanna might not have died trying to remove the key later. Might not...no guarantee of how the situation would have played out when Orac's key was eventually inserted. > Also, Tarrant didn't know they were dealing with Bayban. This is true. And he was fooled by a pro. Norl also had Bayban (who is surely a rougher, more world-weary type than Tarrant) fooled into thinking he was harmless. > For all their conflicts, Tarrant and Vila do not hold > grudges against each other. Vila seems to have forgiven Tarrant by the end of >"City" Yep, when Tarrant apologizes, Vila tells him it doesn't really matter. Not a gracious acceptance of Tarrant's apology but an indication that he isn't holding grudges. This is getting long. I'll end it here and start another post. Carol Mc ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 11:54:38 EDT From: AChevron@aol.com To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] re: Double Standards Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-10-10 10:11:47 EDT, you write: << (One might be less charitable and suggest Avon came back to Liberator in BREAKDOWN because he didn't think it would be safe on XK72 when there were folks around who were so pro-Federation.) But you really seem to have trouble believing that Tarrant might care for Vila as much as for the mission in MOLOCH. >> Well, actually the motive listed above is one I do consider to be a primary one, with his concern for his crewmates secondary.It's just that I don't want to spoil the impression that I think Avon's perfect:-) And actually, I do believe that Tarrant and Vila are establishing a fairly decent relationship by Moloch: Tarrant has seen Vila in action enough times by now to realize his worth. It's just that the Tarrant in Moloch is a throwback to the Tarrant of City; the Tarrant I don't like much at all, vs. the Tarrant of Blake and Terminal. Hope that helps a little bit( you realize you're going to ignite my sadistic streak eventually, and get me to start goading you intentionally). D. Rose ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 17:35:59 +0100 From: Steve Rogerson To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: Sins Message-ID: <361F8CE4.D3232445@mcr1.poptel.org.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Julie Horner tried to fit first season crew into the seven deadly sins. Here's my attempt, but I've widened it to all four seasons: Anger: Travis (because he never did kill Blake) Pride: Tarrant (with his sickly appearance) Avarice: Vila (doesn't really need explaining for our resident theif) Sloth: Servalan (always getting other people to do things for her) Lust: Dayna (for Justin at least, and a bit for Avon in her first episode) Gluttony: Gan (I have to agree with Julie on this one) Envy: Jenna (after she saw Blake give Inga that kiss) -- cheers Steve Rogerson Redemption 99: The Blakes 7 and Babylon 5 convention 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Ashford, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption/ "Get in there you big furry oaf, I don't care what you smell" Star Wars ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 08:46:03 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: Re: [B7L] re: Double Standards Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Sat 10 Oct, AChevron@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 98-10-09 14:57:38 EDT, you write: > > << Avon was frequently nasty to Gan >> > > > Then again, Avon was pretty nasty to just about everyone at one time or > another, though it seems to me the ladies enjoyed relative immunity from his > verbal assaults. > And I think Avon had more respect for Gan than he lets on. After all, he > sacrificed a bolt hole to try and help Gan, returned to the ship to help Gan > and the others when he found out the Federation was on its way, and seemed > concerned on Pressure Point when Gan took off after Vila. And I've pointed out > before, though I can't remember the episode, where Gan and Avon are in the > background, with Avon apparantly intently showing Gan something about the > controls. Avon's not likely to waste his time trying to teach Gan something if > he didn't think Gan was worth the effort....... Deborah Rose True. I hink Avon did liek Gan to some extent. I did a story in a revent issue f Southern Seven that tried to find a more positive slant on their relationship. Acvon's choice in 'breakdown' gives Avon a lot of credit, especially as he showed no sigh of making it because of peer pressure or a desire to look good. Would say mre - but typing is almost physically impossible now. Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 08:38:47 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: Re: [B7L] Killing characters (was Tarrant, Soolin) Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Fri 09 Oct, Julia Jones wrote: > > The black leather takes a while to appear, though... > > (Where *did* I leave the costume-by-episode file...) It's either on my web page or else in the file waiting to be posted to it. We're hoping to add pictures of a lot of the costumes over time as well. It'll b under 'essays' if it's thrre. I'd check, but the neck's very bad today. Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 19:19:05 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant, Soolin, damnit, the whole crew if need be! Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Sat 10 Oct, Sarah Berry wrote: > Carol Mc wrote about some examples of Tarrant's loyalty. I've > always thought of him as a loyal creature so I was very surprised > to (finally) listen to Sevenfold Crown and hear Steven Pacey say > Tarrant only thought of himself and had no loyalty to the crew! > It's another example (like Paul Darrow's Avon from 'Avon: A > Terrible Aspect/Prospect')of how the actors regard their > characters compared to their fans! I'm no Tarrant fan, but I'm forced to agree. Some of the cast seem to have had remarkably little understanding of their characters. Some of them have no idea why those characters are popular with fans. I'm positive that Paul Darrow doesn't really understand why women drool over Avon. I think he attributes it to the macho stuff. I attribute it to the vulnerability. (A macho man only appeals to me if he is emotionally vulnerable) When it comes to Avon, I trust Chris Boucher's statements far more than Paul Darrow's. Chris was the one working on the scripts. (Transation: I agree with Chris because he views the characters the way I do ) One of the items we have planned for Redemption is to get Gareth to give an in-depth analysis of Blake. The last Who's 7 was the only time I've ever seen him really drawn into the subject and we ran out of time before we'd finished. His normal comments on Blake tend to be throwaway lines to get a laugh. Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 18:54:53 +0100 From: Julia Jones To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] re: Double Standards Message-ID: In message , Mac4781@aol.com writes >Nicola, good luck with the move. I can relate to your box obsession: been >there, done that. Especially with mailing a lot of packages within fandom, >I've become something of a box connoisseur. It can be difficult to resist >tasty discarded boxes that I see in supermarkets and the like. "That would be >a perfect box for mailing zines/tapes/etc" runs through my head. > Sounds just like me for several weeks about a year ago, when I had to move the office and lab from one end of the site to the other, for reasons which seem to have more to do with politics than actual need. My officemate and I became expert at grabbing likely looking boxes for storing all our junk pre-, during and post-move. -- Julia Jones "Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!" The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 22:38:58 EDT From: SuzanThoms@aol.com To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Double Standards Message-ID: <4b6089da.36201a42@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >>Judith wrote: >>In fact, I've never been in a situation where I needed someone who >>can kill. << But you've never lived in the B7 universe... Suzanne ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 09:05:54 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List cc: Space City Subject: [B7L] Gareth in Nottingham Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Wed October 21st at the Red Lion public house, Canning Circus, Alfreton Road, Nottingham, a televised party will be held as part of a fund raising event for the BBC Children in Need Appeal. At approximately 9.30 that evening an auction will take place of a newly published novel, (Rivers of Blood) written by James Warrior and Gerry Bramley. Every penny raised goes to the Children in Need fund. The book will be signed by both of the authors and by Gareth Thomas and Sylvester McCoy. The book will also be inscribed to commemorate the occasion and will therefore be unique. The event will be broadcast in the East Midlands on the evening of Fri 30th November this year as part of the big Children in Need night. Gareth Thomas will be at the party too but not until quite late on because he is acting in Arthur Miller's play The Crucible at the Theatre Royal in Nottingham and the play will not finish until about 10.30. Sylverster McCoy will probably not be present due to other committements, but if the situation changes in that respect, I'll post an update. (James Warrior is an actor friend of Gareth's and appeared in Morgan's Boy) Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 07:12:42 EDT From: Mac4781@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Standards and Sins Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Deborah wrote: > Hope that helps a little bit( you realize you're going to ignite my > sadistic streak eventually, and get me to start goading you intentionally). But then I'd have to shift into Servalan mode and destroy your planet. Which could be a bit messy since I live on it. ;-) I was thinking more about Avon giving Tarrant responsibility for bluffing Servalan in HARVEST. I wonder if Avon did that because he was feeling a tad unconfident in his own ability to outwit her. She had neatly trumped his "crew to an Earth-environment planet" when she designated Kairos as their destination. Or maybe he thought it more likely that she'd believe boy scout Tarrant; that she'd assume anything Avon said would be a lie. I did like Tarrant's nice touch of apologizing to Dayna, because he'd be blowing her up along with Liberator. He said that with such believable sincerity. Steven wrote: > Pride: Tarrant (with his sickly appearance) "Sickly appearance"? Steve, what have you been doing to Tarrant and why haven't you told me about it? The Seven Sins has been sort of a timely topic. One of the songs I've been mentally fiddling with for B7 is THE SEVEN DEADLY VIRTUES. But I haven't really had time to do more than vague pondering. Anne Perry's latest Monk book--A BREACH OF PROMISE--has a description of the character that reminded me of a certain leather boy. "Monk smiled. He had a high-cheekboned face with steady gray eyes, a broad- bridged aquiline nose and a wide, thin mouth. It was the countenance of a man who was clever, as ruthless with himself as with others, possessed of courage and humor, who hid his weaknesses behind a mask of wit--and sometimes of affected coldness." Carol Mc ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 15:57:30 +0100 From: "Alison Page" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Sins Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This 'sins' stuff is rather irresistible, though all bases seem to be expertly covered .. aha, perhaps not. I sometimes think the seven deadly sins are those personal qualities which best distinguish us from doormats. So its not surprising that the characters on my favourite show seem to feature them in great abundance. Musing on this I thought - well most of them exhibit the majority of the sins, often several at one time. So what about defining them in terms of the sins they *lack* rather than those they exhibit? Like this: Pride - Gan Gluttony - Cally Lust - Orac Anger - Zen Avarice - Blake Sloth - Avon Envy - Soolin Vila of course lacks no sin, and Slave lacks all of them. Alison -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V98 Issue #258 **************************************