From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V98 #176 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume98/176 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 176 Today's Topics: [B7L] Um, did not mean to offend A.S.K.S. Re: [B7L] Um, did not mean to offend A.S.K.S. Re: [B7L] mental illness- was Avon ceritifiable? Re: [B7L] World Cup (was Epitaphs) Re: [B7L] Blakes 7 : The World Cup Years [B7L] chess [B7L] control Re: [B7L] mental illness- was Avon ceritifiable? [B7L] mental illness- was Avon ceritifiable? [B7L] Stuff Re: [B7L] re: -Cuckoo Waltze Re: [B7L] With the greatest respect to the Tarrant Nostra... [B7L] Re: Blake's 7: The World Cup Years [B7L] Bloody video tapes Re: [B7L] Um, did not mean to offend A.S.K.S. [B7L] B7 Writer's Group Round Robin Re: [B7L] Bloody video tapes [B7L] Avon and guilt--was mental illness- was Avon ceritifiable? Re: [B7L] mental illness- was Avon ceritifiable? [B7L] A reply to my own goofy post [B7L] a reply to the post about Guilt Re: [B7L] a reply to the post about Guilt ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 20:10:38 PDT From: "Edith Spencer" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Um, did not mean to offend A.S.K.S. Message-ID: <19980626031039.8280.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Um, Ok- I did not mean to offend the members of ASKS nor anyone who is a diehard Avonite. Goodness, no. I was just wondering about the motivations behind the character. Blake is quite easy to figure out actually- an educated idealist living in a decayed, corrupt, oppressive system who wants to destroy it. An English Lenin or Trotsky, perhaps. ( It doesn't make Blake any less fascinating,btw)But I do wonder about the Avon character- he was rendered very mysterious, very aloof, and there is nothing more irrestible to many a viewer/reader of fiction than an aloof, mysterious man or woman( I fell in love with Sherlock Holmes when I was 13!) You always wonder what is the motivation behind such characters and the choices that they make. As for not being an empath...I admit it freely, or I would not be part of the list :) But I think is part of the show many charms- and why so many shows after it have copied many of its elements (ST:TNG, though they would never admit it in a month of sundays, B5, V) the intricate plotting, the interesting characters and rather good writing...for the most part. Of course, the other charms are less edifying- Cally's shocking thinness, Blake's Afro(Welshfro?) Jenna's outfits, Vila's sideburns and Avon's, um, leather. Edith Spencer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 22:32:42 -0500 From: Lisa Williams To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Um, did not mean to offend A.S.K.S. Message-Id: <199806260328.WAA00207@mail.dallas.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Edith Spencer wrote: >Blake is quite easy to figure out actually- an educated idealist living in >a decayed, corrupt, oppressive system who wants to destroy it. An English >Lenin or Trotsky, perhaps. ( It doesn't make Blake any less >fascinating,btw)But I do wonder about the Avon character- he was rendered >very mysterious, very aloof, That's interesting. For me, Avon was the familiar character on the show, the one whose type I recognized and had seen before in various incarnations. I liked him, yes, but I didn't find him the least bit mysterious or difficult to understand. It was Blake I always had a hard time figuring out; I hadn't run into anything quite like him before. - Lisa _____________________________________________________________ Lisa Williams: lcw@dallas.net or lwilliams@ti.com Lisa's Video Frame Capture Library: http://lcw.simplenet.com/ New Riders of the Golden Age: http://www.warhorse.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 00:25:14 EDT From: AChevron@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] mental illness- was Avon ceritifiable? Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I'm no "elder", but offhand I'd say Avon is NOT certifiable. His Gambit escapade is intriguing, but there are possible explanations. 1) For all the wealth onboard, Avon apparantly did not consider it "his"; look at his attitude toward Liberator, Orac, etc. second, his answer when Vila asks why someone would play the Klute suggests that he also enjoys high-stakes games. His willpower seems to keep him from taking the suicidal risk, but he is willing to gamble Vila's life. The millions he and vila earned were his, with no attachment or debtedness to anyone else. Quick comment on 4th season B7. given the events, and the pressure to survive, it's amazing Avon didn't opt for the option most of the other Federation geniuses did; i.e. lock himself away and hope no one found him. The stress of the 'job' just brought out some idiosyncracies. ] Would comment more, but meds are working. Looking forward to more on this thread. D. Rose ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 00:54:33 +0100 From: "Tom Forsyth" To: "B7 Lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] World Cup (was Epitaphs) Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alison P wrote: > I can't believe I misspelled Romania. Also I can't believe that my new > spellchecker didn't notice. Or does 'Rumania' actually mean something > else? A passionate interest in things with multiple stomachs? ....or in immature bipedal marsupials? No, actually it's something disparaging said by house-hunting cockerneys - "Gawd, issa bit pokey, innit? There ain't much..." Tom Forsyth. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 00:26:04 +0100 From: "Tom Forsyth" To: "B7 Lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Blakes 7 : The World Cup Years Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Todd G asked (probably rhetorically, since he obviously knows the answer): > "If the sum of the hypotenuse is equal to the sum of the square of the > other two sides, why is a mouse when it spins?" They only spin upside down. They're breakdancing. Tom Forsyth. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 03:01:27 +1000 From: Roger the Shrubber To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] chess Message-Id: <199806251701.DAA08444@budapest.ozonline.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit penny wrote penny_kjelgaard@juno.com wrote: > > OK, you are playing chess and the game pieces morph into Blake's 7 > characers. > ******* well they have STAR TREK chess sets which cost God-knows-how-many hundreds of dollars, so perhaps the Franklin Mint will one day produce a magnificent gleaming B7 vs The Federation chess set. Each piece might cost $49.95 but you get the board free ! ___________________________________ from Darren r ..... Comments are welcome ! powerplay@cheerful.com ____________________________________ "OK, here's a disc sander, maybe ratchet up the manliness just a tad." ______________________________________ "The Administration is out to get me" _______________________________________ "In the end, winning is the only safety" _________________________________________ "While not detracting in any way from this store's right to examine all baggage, I am prepared to concede that our security man may have exceeded his authority in napalming your grandmother" ________________________________________ ________________________________________ http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/2634 Anxiety & Panic _________________________________________ http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/2634/powerplay.html Blake's 7 FAQ & free screen savers ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 03:01:24 +1000 From: Roger the Shrubber To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] control Message-Id: <199806251701.DAA08440@budapest.ozonline.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit rob & ophelia wrote >Another classic example of that was Blake's reaction in "Pressure >Point" when he realised he hadn't found "Control" after all. Very >hard-hitting. Um. Or depending on your point of view, very very funny. Sorry. But the sight of Blake running into an empty room like a kid who finds his lolly shop has turned into a school is guaranteed to make me giggle. It's a bit of unfortunate histrionics in an otherwise excellent episode. ****** oooo no .... high drama as the dreams of a revolutionary come crashing down. Serious stuff, no laughing matter IMO. Perhaps the endless climbing down the same ladder and hanging from the monkey -bars became a bit comical - "just change the color of the lighting then they'll all think we're on a different level", but I suppose they really wanted to give the impression that something significant was going to happen, so it was worth a big build-up. ___________________________________ from Darren r ..... Comments are welcome ! powerplay@cheerful.com ____________________________________ "OK, here's a disc sander, maybe ratchet up the manliness just a tad." ______________________________________ "The Administration is out to get me" _______________________________________ "In the end, winning is the only safety" _________________________________________ "While not detracting in any way from this store's right to examine all baggage, I am prepared to concede that our security man may have exceeded his authority in napalming your grandmother" ________________________________________ ________________________________________ http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/2634 Anxiety & Panic _________________________________________ http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/2634/powerplay.html Blake's 7 FAQ & free screen savers ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 11:36:49 +0100 From: Lydia Carty To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] mental illness- was Avon ceritifiable? Message-ID: <359379C1.6713@virgin.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit D. Rose wrote.. Quick comment on 4th season B7. given the events, and the pressure to > survive, it's amazing Avon didn't opt for the option most of the other > Federation geniuses did; i.e. lock himself away and hope no one found him. Oh but he did think very seriously about it e.g "Breakdown" in series one and then again in series two "Horizon" where Orac estimates he has a high chance of survival just cruising around in the liberator on the fringes of the Galaxy on his own. This is a key moment because he several times tells the crew that he will not go to Horizon ("I'm not stupid, I'm not expendable and i'm not going"). That he does go and risk his life is his decision ... maybe like "Mission to Destiny" he can't stand a mystery. In the series four episode "Traitor" Vila urges they do a runner on the basis of the Fed's rapid crushing of systems in their direction and Avon shouts back "I won't run!". Avon is now as dedicated to the destruction of the Federation as Blake was, but for less altruistic reasons "In the end, winning is the only safety"...and perhaps his ultimate challenge. Sadly, as he was pointed out about Blake, he couldn't win, no one could. Aaargh..death by time..must dasharoonie. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 07:33:00 -0400 From: DJ Wight To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" Subject: [B7L] mental illness- was Avon ceritifiable? Message-ID: <199806260733_MC2-5166-CE42@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In the throes of what seems an interminable game of B7 e-mail catch-up.... Edith wrote: > Okay, so you all have probably discussed this to > death, but I have to hear other opinions about it: Was Avon crazy? ( or mad for our English cousins:) ...oh God, a thread I *can't* pass up, I just can't. > I have seen several episodes where Avon goes on and on about > money and money that, but in the second episode where the > original crew gets on the liberator and Avon discovers wealth > beyond that of the banking cartel. So, episodes like gambit do not > make sense, because the crew is already wealthy, from that point. Only there's no evidence that the crew ever regards that money as 'theirs' in any personal sense. The one time I can recall when Vila touches on it in "Shadow", when he responds "But we do, we *do*--" to either Blake or Jenna saying everything's for sale in Space City,"if you've got the money" -- he gets a 'null' reaction. My guess is that Blake has put his foot down on the issue quite early on, that the contents of the treasure room are not to be regarded as anyone's private property, that it's part of the overall resource the ship represents, and will stay right where it is unless there's a compelling need to spend it on something critical to their survival. I'd like to come back to the specific issue of Avon and money later. > And why is he so nasty to people who would protect him > ( except Vila)? And whassup with that fourth season dude- way > different from the cold, mean snob we all love to hate 1st > season. 4th season looked as if ham on wry was being served > for lunch every day! And finally,dear god, why didn't the crew > kill him if he such an goddamn jerk? Ooohhh, the pain! All these marvellous, fun questions, and *I gotta be on that damn bus to work inside of twenty minutes!* but I can't resist circling back for a fast run at this one, > Was Avon crazy? because that was one I spent a lot of time mulling over, my first few months in fandom. I've heard this one framed in a variety of ways: Was Avon psychotic? was he psychopathic/a psychopath? was he paranoid? or, more simply, was he mad? and if any of these, then to what extent? All quite different questions, each in its own way worth taking up, so...forgive my cutting and pasting from an earlier mulling-over session, (not on either of the B7 e-lists) a while back. *Was* Avon psychotic? I'd say no. Not in any sense of having any persistent psychotic disorder, the essence of psychosis being loss of contact with reality. It's quite common, actually...at about 3% incidence in the population, it's probably still higher than diabetes. The good news being that most people who have psychotic episodes will fully recover from the experience. Symptoms can include confused thinking (speech becomes irrational or doesn't make sense, the person may have trouble concentrating, following a conversation or remembering things, thinking may seem either to speed up or slow down), delusional beliefs, hallucinations, "feeling strange" (eg., cut off from the world, or that everything's moving in slow motion) mood swings, unusual excitement or depression, emotional numbing, extremes of activity or lethargy, and behavioural changes such as laughing inappropriately or becoming angry or upset for no apparent reason. Any or all of the above can be drug-induced, organic (eg., associated with head injury), brief- reactive form, delusional, schizophrenic, manic-depressive, depressive, schizoaffective, the list goes on. None of them, with the exception of the brief-reactive form, would seem to apply at all in Avon's case. There *are* a number of periods in the story where he could be a candidate for brief reactive psychosis. Brief reactive psychosis = psychotic symptoms arising suddenly in response to major stress in a person's life, eg., a death in the family or a drastic change in living circumstances. Can be severe, but people usually recover in a matter of days. Shall we count the episodes? Beyond pointing out "Terminal/Rescue/Power", there doesn't seem much point. Avon is hardly as unaffected by the things that happen to him as he might like to believe, but there's only one episode in the entire four years, where IMO he clearly presents as psychotic. That's in "Power". When he's challenged as to why he's told Orac to give the others a false access code to the landing silo, he replies, "For much the same reason as Dorian - I didn't like the idea of Scorpio taking off without me." He appears to have acted out of a delusional fear that, should Vila succeed in breaking the lock on the launch chamber door during his absence, the others would use Orac to get the access code, take the ship and leave. On the evidence, this is extraordinary. Neither Tarrant nor Dayna have said or done anything to suggest any such intention, and if Vila had considered it, surely he would have been more readily got to work on that door. It wouldn't even be well supported as a logical possibility. Not nearly as well supported as a conclusion that in this instance, he *is* experiencing a psychotic reaction to the events of the preceeding two episodes. Under the circumstances...pretty normal. Arguably a lot more normal than the way the rest of the party is reacting. Was he psychopathic/a psychopath? is an another question entirely. After a quick websearch on psychopathic personality, leading to the World Health Organization's description of antisocial personality disorder - well, here's how it ran, let's see: Dissocial (Antisocial) Personality Disorder: [A] personality disorder, usually coming to attention because of a gross disparity between behaviour and the prevailing social norms, and characterized by at least 3 of the following: (a) callous unconcern for the feelings of others; Ah - no. Doesn't sound like Avon. He can be brutal when irritated, especially when he is himself upset, but there are plenty of instances throughout the four years when he's clearly present to the way his companions are feeling, and while seldom very expressive, seems by no means unsympathetic. (b) gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility and disregard for social norms, rules and obligations; Arguably yes, but I'm not persuaded. There are two elements to this one. First, a "gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility for social norms, rules and obligations". Loosely translating, a consistent, immovable attitude that rules are meaningless formulae for other people to obey. Second, a "gross and persistent disregard for social norms, rules and obligations." We don't just need the attitude, here, we need the behaviour to go with it. Consistent, casual, in-your-face rule-breaking. How much of this do we actually see in Avon's character? Gross rule-breaking on occasion, yes! His abortive effort to rip off the Federation banking system surely rates as that! and his implied readiness, in "Space Fall", to bargain his companions' lives for his own freedom by offering to falsify the London's log, is disturbing stuff. There's also a lot that flows from his "Wealth is the only reality," speech in the same episode, to suggest he takes a harsh enough view of existence, and of his own entitlement to do whatever he chooses in his own interest, that intuitively I have to say 'could be!' as far as the attitude goes. But: I don't see either its persistent expression, or the gross and persistent misbehaviour to go with it. From the time he ends up with Blake, even at the start when his edges are roughest, the worst one can usually call Avon's behaviour is rude. Rude, tactless, sarcastic, on occasion genuinely curious with godawful timing, and when under stress, about as compassionate as a rock...but consistent, in his apparent preference for civil society, and preparedness to conduct himself civilly more often than not. Both suggest a good understanding and at least some appreciation of social norms, rules, etc., as useful, and no sense on his part of there being no reason why he need respect them. (c) incapacity to maintain enduring relationships, though having no difficulty in establishing them; Possibly arguable, but IMO not applicable. Reversal would bring this closer to the truth. (d) very low tolerance to frustration and a low threshold for discharge of aggression, including violence. Here, one could impulsively say *YES!* Avon certainly does have his moments, when it comes to being noisily frustrated and aggressive. Including violent. But no, again I think not. Not that there isn't an undercurrent of violence in the character, through the first two series. More reactive than actively aggressive - I don't think we ever see him go looking for a physical fight - but he's comfortable with taking out his aggressions violently, and I'd say gets a certain satisfaction from the exercise. But no. As long as overstress and/or fear aren't part of the equation, he seems quite a restrained character, and I'd say very tolerant of frustration. Just look at how long he puts up with Blake... (e) incapacity to experience guilt and to profit from experience, particularly punishment; *And now we get to it*. Oohh, yeah. Give this one a solid 'yes'. Very slightly because at entrance, there's nothing to suggest Avon feels any particular guilt over anything he's done, or that the punishment he's facing will affect his disposition in the slightest. Rather more because he makes it so clear that he feels he's entitled to do anything he chooses, in his own interest, without regard for consequences for anyone else. Partly because that appears to extend, later, to a sense that he need feel no regret for harm resulting from anything he does, (whether or not he's intended to harm anyone) so long as he's acted rationally. Mostly because the last two circumstances appear to set a base line from which he never entirely deviates. We are definitely in the realm of psychopathic tendency, here. (f) marked proneness to blame others, or to offer plausible rationalizations, for the behaviour that has brought the patient into conflict with society. A solid 'no'. Doesn't sound like Avon. Even at the very beginning, when Blake asks what went wrong with his plan, and he replies, "I relied on other people!" - it sounds as though he blames himself a lot more for doing the relying, than the others for letting him down. [(g)]There may also be persistent irritability as an associated feature. Conduct disorder during childhood and adolescence, though not invariably present, may further support the diagnosis. Again, no...and the rest, not provable. Now, for a quick look at the last two variations on the question. Was Avon paranoid? I'd say no. I'd be interested in hearing if anyone feels there's a case to be made for it, but IMO, no. The trouble with this one is that paranoia *can* be a natural and adaptive response to a threatening environment Or, more simply, was he mad? and if yes, to what extent? Well, this is the one that pulls it all together, doesn't it? What difference would it make? To the question that usually underlies it, in the real world (*not* to imply it does here!): was he anything to be feared? or beyond understanding, redemption, or forgiveness...? No.... For me, that's the short answer. No. Not to call Avon anyone's model of mental health! He isn't psychotic or paranoid, and he certainly isn't a fully developed psychopathic personality, but at entrance he *does* present with some fairly solid psychopathic tendencies, and while he improves a lot over the four years...the end doesn't see him clear. Getting there, but not yet. What's interesting, is that if we step back to the character at entrance, what happens to him is just about the best thing that could happen. But save that one for another day, it's < 5 minutes to bus-time. Catch ya later, folks. DJ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:08:23 +0000 (GMT) From: Una McCormack To: Lysator Subject: [B7L] Stuff Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Phil: *loved* the World Cup squad - brilliant! Alison: I have a sneaking suspicion that 'Rumania' *used* to be an OK spelling. These are shaky memories of old stamp albums, tho'... ;) Edith: Welcome aboard: I enjoyed your post. The pragmatism and realism of B7's politics is one of its major attractions for me. Una -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The pre-menstrual historian: 'It's NOT my period!' -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Judge Institute of Management Studies Tel: +44 (0)1223 766064 Trumpington Street Fax: +44 (0)1223 339701 Cambridge CB2 1AG http://www.sticklebrock.demon.co.uk/una United Kingdom http://www.jims.cam.ac.uk/research/ion/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:23:44 +0100 From: "Julie Horner" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] re: -Cuckoo Waltze Message-Id: <199806261222.OAA23853@samantha.lysator.liu.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: Jackie > > Julie Horner wrote: > > > > > Actually I think I read that Josette Simon did a few episodes in the Cuckoo > > Waltz - so that must have been after B7 - but I am sure it is older than > > that - > > oh dear can someone more knowledgable take over. > > > > Julie Horner > Jackie said > I won`t say that I`m more knowledgeable, but I also think Cuckoo Waltze > was before Blakes 7. > Cuckoo waltze also had Lewis Collins in it, very much pre- > Professionals, which was before Blakes 7. > Perhaps Josette did her episodes while still at drama school? > Unless of course the series (or 2) that had Lewis in was indeed before > Blakes 7 & Professionals, and was remade after for Josette to guest in. > I vaguely remember somebody else other than Lewis as the Cuckoo for at > least another seies. > Actually I have just found the reference to Josette and Cuckoo Waltz in the Horizon interviews. It sounds as though she did one episode and it was _after_ Blake 7. The interviewer said: Have there been any parts you haven't enjoyed playing? Josette: Yes, that awful one in the Cuckoo Waltz That was because when I joined them they had been doing it for a couple of series.... So I guess Cuckoo Waltz could have been both before and after. Julie Horner ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:20:18 +0100 From: "fifitrix" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] With the greatest respect to the Tarrant Nostra... Message-ID: <014901bda0fd$7fcaa940$d34895c1@scarlett> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jenni wrote: >It is wise to respect the Tarrant Nostra. Their arm is long, as is their memory! > >Joanne wrote: > > > >Erm, Carol, how long are you prepared to wait? I'd hate to disappoint >anyone generous enough to spare me from kidnapping. > > >The Godmother is a wise and generous leader. She will be patient, but you will sucumb to His Curliness' charms, which are manifest. > >You have been duly warned! > >Jenni (who could quite get into this gangster-type stuff) > He is beautiful, he is wonderous, he has a really cute bum. We are legion. We are everywhere. We are faceless, we could be sitting next you on the train, bus or plane. Check in the bed for the horses head. nuff said fifitrix ******************************************************************* Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition! ******************************************************************* fifitrix@dial.pipex.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 23:47:23 +1000 From: Taina Nieminen To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: Blake's 7: The World Cup Years Message-ID: <3593A66B.F1BC00FC@netspace.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Norway - the Liberator: strong and solid, absorbs a lot of pressure, and can do anything on a good day. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 15:57:38 +0000 (GMT) From: Una McCormack To: Lysator cc: Space City Subject: [B7L] Bloody video tapes Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I am getting mildly depressed about these damn video releases, as my local shop has decided not to stock them (tho' will order them for me, and didn't think it was likely that Fab Films would stop releasing them before they got to the end). Has anyone got any information about release dates? Did anyone else have success ringing Fabulous and finding out about video covers. I *really* don't want all this money to go down the pan Una -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The pre-menstrual historian: 'It's NOT my period!' -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Judge Institute of Management Studies Tel: +44 (0)1223 766064 Trumpington Street Fax: +44 (0)1223 339701 Cambridge CB2 1AG http://www.sticklebrock.demon.co.uk/una United Kingdom http://www.jims.cam.ac.uk/research/ion/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:01:44 -0700 From: Helen Krummenacker To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Um, did not mean to offend A.S.K.S. Message-ID: <3593B7D8.1F16@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Edith Spencer wrote: > > Um, Ok- > I did not mean to offend the members of ASKS nor anyone who is a > diehard Avonite. Goodness, no. Sorry, I was having fun at your expense... I don't offend easily. Just putting on a touch of Avon's superciliousness. I was just wondering about the > motivations behind the character. Blake is quite easy to figure out > actually- an educated idealist living in a decayed, corrupt, oppressive > system who wants to destroy it. An English Lenin or Trotsky, perhaps. ( > It doesn't make Blake any less fascinating,btw)But I do wonder about the > Avon character- he was rendered very mysterious, very aloof, and there > is nothing more irrestible to many a viewer/reader of fiction than an > aloof, mysterious man or woman( I fell in love with Sherlock Holmes when > I was 13!) You always wonder what is the motivation behind such > characters and the choices that they make. Okay, the way I see it, Avon is a man of honor in a society that uses and discards honorable people (much like our own?). He will not give up his principles (although his priciples are different from more traditional heroes), but to defend himself against manipulation by others is 1. very suspicious of other's motivations. Once burned, many times shy. 2. prone to act like a jerk, because that way idiots don't expect him to bail their butts out (no matter how many times he may _actually do so_-- of course, his comrades aren't idiots s ot ehy end up seeing through this) and no one is entirely sure which way he will jump. Easier to run bluffs that way. Think how often he survived encounters with Servalan at first because she didn't believe he believed in what Blake was fighting for. Avon is rational about his ideals. They aren't based on religion or tradition, but more a matter personal judgements. He doesn't pick on the weak, he thinks betrayal is the worst crime, etc. > As for not being an empath...I admit it freely, or I would not be > part of the list :) I'm an empath-- one BIG difference from Avon. So I don't _usually_ tease people, the way I did with you. Actually I did it to yank the chains of many of the list regulars, who know what a die-hard Avon fanatic I am. But I think is part of the show many charms- and why > so many shows after it have copied many of its elements (ST:TNG, though > they would never admit it in a month of sundays, B5, V) the intricate > plotting, the interesting characters and rather good writing...for the > most part. Of course, the other charms are less edifying- Cally's > shocking thinness, Blake's Afro(Welshfro?) Compared to tarrant's Blake's was fairly tame. Jenna's outfits, Jenna's? Give me Servalan's wardrobe, you can wear the pilot's clothes. Vila's > sideburns and Avon's, um, leather. Avon's _wit, charm, and personality_. (she said with a sigh... still, it's better than constantly having to praise Tarrant, eh, Tarrant Nostra?) -- Avona, wondering if she should let her Cally side take over before she really gets people mad. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 10:56:52 EDT From: DCsquared@aol.com To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] B7 Writer's Group Round Robin Message-ID: <795c950b.3593b6bc@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Just a quick anouncement. The B7 Novice Writer's Group is having it's first round robin. If anyone else would like to participate, jump on over to our web page and enlist. (Feel free to pass this info on to the other list. I finally had to unsub due to lack of time. Thanks...) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Donna Chlouber Keeper of Zen's Wisdom B7 Novice Writer's Group http://members.aol.com/DCsquared/mainframe.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 16:49:18 +0100 From: "Julie Horner" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Bloody video tapes Message-Id: <199806261547.RAA01765@samantha.lysator.liu.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: Una McCormack > > I am getting mildly depressed about these damn video releases, as my local > shop has decided not to stock them (tho' will order them for me, and > didn't think it was likely that Fab Films would stop releasing them > before they got to the end). > > Has anyone got any information about release dates? Did anyone else have > success ringing Fabulous and finding out about video covers. > > I *really* don't want all this money to go down the pan > Our local WH Smith and Woolworths have also decided not to bother after the first four tapes, but we were able to get tape 5 from HMV in Stockport (shiny) Also, joy and rapture - my husband rang at lunch time to say he has just bought tape 6 (dunno but presumably shiny) - I think it came out yesterday (25th). Brilliant timing on his part as I was just surfacing from a particularly sordid failure in the infant's toilet training and I needed news like that to cheer me up. Julie Horner ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:16:18 -0700 From: Helen Krummenacker To: DJ Wight CC: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" Subject: [B7L] Avon and guilt--was mental illness- was Avon ceritifiable? Message-ID: <3593F383.78@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > (e) incapacity to experience guilt and to profit from experience, > particularly punishment; > > *And now we get to it*. Oohh, yeah. Give this one a solid 'yes'. > Very slightly because at entrance, there's nothing to suggest Avon > feels any particular guilt over anything he's done, or that the > punishment he's facing will affect his disposition in the slightest. > Rather more because he makes it so clear that he feels he's entitled > to do anything he chooses, in his own interest, without regard for > consequences for anyone else. Partly because that appears to > extend, later, to a sense that he need feel no regret for harm > resulting from anything he does, (whether or not he's intended to > harm anyone) so long as he's acted rationally. Mostly because the > last two circumstances appear to set a base line from which he > never entirely deviates. We are definitely in the realm of > psychopathic tendency, here. > Avon never _admits_ to feeling guilt, but there are indications he does. Look how his relationship with Dayna changes in the wake of her father's death. They flirted before... but afterwards, he acted "in loco parentis" towards her. I think he felt like he had brought the serpent into their home, after Servalan destroyed the Mellanby household. His desire to avenge Anna's "death" comes from, in part, I think a sense of guilt over the notion that she died for him. But he doesn't wallow in guilt most of the time-- that's a very unproductive thing to do. He simply accepts his failure, tries to learn from it (thus, learning from his 'punishment' for it is the internal punishment of failure rather than external punishments that matter to 'masterminds') and then, if he can make amends in some form of action does so. But most of the things that happen cannot be undone. So he forces himself to move on. Too much of this starts pushing his personality over the edge in season 4, as he does not have good coping mechanisms. I recommend that people watch-- can any one supply the name of the episode?-- the season 5 episode of Babylon 5, where Mollari confornts his sense of guilt. He has total mental blocks against admitting his sense of guilt, and has a heart attack as a result. It isn't that some people have no sense of guilt, it's that they can'tdeal with guilt. The Simpsons also did an Thanksgiving episode where Bart _was_ sorry he'd destroyed his sisters artwork, but couldn't say so for fear everyone would turn on him if he admitted guilt. I think Avon has a similar proble. I he says "It was my fault," he thinks everyone will say "Yes, and we're booting you off the ship for it." JMHO ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 09:49:26 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: Re: [B7L] mental illness- was Avon ceritifiable? Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Thu 25 Jun, Edith Spencer wrote: > I have seen several episodes where Avon goes on and on about money > and money that, but in the second episode where the original crew gets > on the liberator and Avon discovers wealth beyond that of the banking > cartel. So, episodes like gambit do not make sense, because the crew is > already wealthy, from that point. I don't think Avon saw Liberator's money as entirely his own. Think of 'Shadow' where they are shwoing gems to the Terra Nostra man. Avon reluctantly gives the gems back to Blake. I think the treasure room was viewed as a fund for the revolution and not belonging to any one of them. Consider also 'Breakdown'. Avon didn't (as far as I'm aware) raid the treasure room before going over to the space station. He was offering his services as a technical specialist which suggests he wasn't thinking of himself as rich. Money gained from gambling belonged to him and Vila only. Nobody else could dispute it or lay claim to it. And I think he enjoyed the thrill. > And why is he so nasty to people who would protect him ( except > Vila)? Because he trusts them and knows that they won't actually ditch him no matter how much of a pain he is. Bear in mind that he also protects them. (Consider The Web, Trial, Breakdown, and various other episodes) What Avon says and what Avon does are often streets apart. > And whassup with that fourth season dude- way different from the cold, mean > snob we all love to hate 1st season. 4th season looked as if ham on wry was > being served for lunch every day! And finally,dear god, why didn't the crew > kill him if he such an goddamn jerk? > Just asking you b7 elders! We decided last weekend that Avon's mental health was always a popular discussion, so we added it to the agenda for Redemption. If anyone wants to moderate a discussion on whether Avon was mentally ill or just highly stressed, just drop me a line. We've got a couple of other popular perennials as well as some more original activities. We've already got volunteers to run some, but will be out there twisting arms for others. Judith PS. Chris says that anyone attending his juggling workshop at Redemption should bring a pair of clean socks. I leave the reasons entirely to your imagination! PPS. One of the workshops that ended up with a 'maybe' rating was puppetry. Those at the last night of 'Guards Guards' will have seen Rachel's wonderful Avon puppet. Having had a chance to play with it with strings untangled, I love it. Would there be interest in a workshop on making and using marionettes? Rachel has an Avon and a Blake puppet and will be working on Servalan and I've had a lot of experience performing with marionettes even if most of it does date back to over 20 years ago. -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:26:10 PDT From: "Edith Spencer" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] A reply to my own goofy post Message-ID: <19980626202611.15475.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain To all: Thanks for the continuing replies! I rewatched a couple of the episodes the other night as part our weekly Mystery science Theatre get together (hee)and it would seem that while Avon is under stress and does weird things(uh, the leather) he is also able to keep calm and rather rational under the most extreme of circumstances. As to my earlier rambling about Avon seeming rather fixated on money- if he really was the number two guy in computer programming in the Federation, he must have some sort of comfortable lifestyle ( No, I have not read any fanfic. Yet.) and yet he goes off and plans this massive fraud. While plan a fraud when you are comfortable already? Was it the thrill of planning and getting away with it, rather than the actual money itself? And with another man's wife(Anna/Bart)? Was the society so decayed that one of it's most talented members felt compelled to try to get away with it? ( By the way, my russian friend Kyra said that all intellectuals-writers, artists, scientists- were watched closely by the government. Is this perhaps why Avon wound up in jail, anyway?) Like a lot of people I seem to know (and like, strangely enough...hmm) Avon is lacking in certain social norms- Kinda like a teenager in his mid-thirties who never really learned, or wanted to learn, the little hypocrisies that make up adult life. Oh dear, I am getting on here! Edith Spencer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:42:36 PDT From: "Edith Spencer" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] a reply to the post about Guilt Message-ID: <19980626204237.19497.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Gosh, this is addictive! In the episode after poor Gan buys the farm,( Trial?) Blakes goes off to think on a planet. The crew postulates why,to Avon says something like maybe's Blakes feeling guilty. Jenna asks Avon " And what would you about guilt?" "Only what I have read" he replies with a smirk. Hmm... Which seems to be in character with the post by Helen and with other episodes. Only after we are introduced to some of Avon's past do we get glimmerings of regret and shock of discovering you are in a web ( another B7 thing used in B5; JMS is god!). Wow- this is fun! and gresat way to pass time while working in the Lab! Edith Spencer P.S. I seem to remember,sorta, that there was a book by the actor who played Avon on the series. I think I read, once. My mother did a periodic sweep of my room ( Carribean Catholics, you know) and proclaimed ( the book, along with some commie lit I was also into at the time)obscene and disgusting. Does anybody else remember this? Some of the passages were enough to make a 15 year girl blush. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 16:16:55 -0700 From: Helen Krummenacker To: Edith Spencer CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] a reply to the post about Guilt Message-ID: <35942BE8.31D@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Edith Spencer wrote: > > Gosh, this is addictive! > In the episode after poor Gan buys the farm,( Trial?) Blakes > goes off to think on a planet. The crew postulates why,to Avon says > something like maybe's Blakes feeling guilty. Jenna asks Avon " And what > would you about guilt?" "Only what I have read" he replies with a smirk. > Hmm... You know, you really belong on this list! You are great at bringing up the controversial questions, with a real interest in the answers. I have to unsub in a few days as I'm going on vacation, but it will be nice to see what else you stir up when I get back. > Which seems to be in character with the post by Helen and with other > episodes. Only after we are introduced to some of Avon's past do we get > glimmerings of regret and shock of discovering you are in a web ( > another B7 thing used in B5; JMS is god!). Yes! > P.S. I seem to remember,sorta, that there was a book by the actor who > played Avon on the series. I think I read, once. My mother did a > periodic sweep of my room ( Carribean Catholics, you know) and > proclaimed ( the book, along with some commie lit I was also into at the > time)obscene and disgusting. Does anybody else remember this? Some of > the passages were enough to make a 15 year girl blush. Yes, I thought they were fairly hot when I first read them, but defintely not obscene. Paul did some interesting things with it... I wasn't fond of the idea of Anna as an addict, but that was _one_ way to make it work. Some people truely hate that novel, others greet it with gales of laughter... I think the best stuff is how messed up his mother was-- with a background like that, no wonder he does the emotional deadpan. -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V98 Issue #176 **************************************