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blakes7-d Digest				Volume 00 : Issue 295

Today's Topics:
  Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian  [ "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet ]
  Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian  [ Mistral <mistral@centurytel.net> ]
  Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian  [ Mac4781@aol.com ]
  Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian  [ "J MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.co ]
  Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian  [ Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org> ]
  Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian  [ Mistral <mistral@centurytel.net> ]
  [B7L] Had to be seen to be ... belie  [ "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com ]
  [B7L] I didn't say he *paid* for the  [ "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com ]
  [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian and  [ "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com ]
  [B7L] Planning and acting skills (wa  [ "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com ]
  [B7L] Avon as loner? (part 1)         [ "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com ]
  [B7L] Avon as loner? (part 1)         [ "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com ]
  Re: [B7L] Had to be seen to be ... b  [ Penny Dreadful <pennydreadful@power ]
  Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (part 1)     [ Mistral <mistral@centurytel.net> ]
  [B7L] Dorian and Avon]                [ "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com ]
  Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (part 1)     [ "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com ]
  Dayna (was Re: [B7L] Avon as loner?   [ Mistral <mistral@centurytel.net> ]
  Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (part 1)     [ Mistral <mistral@centurytel.net> ]
  Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (part 1)     [ "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com ]
  Re: [B7L] bfi poll                    [ Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@comp ]
  Re: [B7L] Review: Travis 2 miniature  [ Jacqueline Thijsen <inquisitioner@w ]
  Re: [B7L] Had to be seen to be ... b  [ "Christine+Steve" <cgorman@idirect. ]
  Re: [B7L] Had to be seen to be ... b  [ Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org> ]
  Re: [B7L] I didn't say he *paid* for  [ Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org> ]
  Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian  [ Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org> ]
  Re: [B7L] Planning and acting skills  [ Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org> ]
  Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian  [ "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.n ]
  [B7L] cult TV                         [ Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.com ]

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 19:45:26 -0400
From: "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet.att.net>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]  Avon as loner? (was Dorian and Avon and *is* long ...)
Message-ID: <007f01c03c82$ecb6ec80$e1694e0c@dshilling>
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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Sally said:
> I love that line in Horizon, the quiet satisfaction of his "I am not alone
> after all".
To me, it didn't sound like "quiet satisfaction," it sounded like the "oh,
bugger" was silent.

> Marian said:
> <In Time Squad Gan confides in Jenna about his limiter and she's very
> sympathetic.  (More than we see her to anyone else except Blake.)  In that
> scene they interact more with each other than either of them ever does
with
> Avon, IMHO.>
Jenna also says that she's thinking seriously of resigning her job (all mod
cons plus stock options) and Gan says that Blake wouldn't stop her--
a very generous way of interpreting Blake's "my way or highway" statement
to Avon earlier in the same episode.

Sally:
>He stays wary of Blake -
> understandable as, while Vila and Cally are prepared to take him as he is,
> Blake has the irritating habit of asking more of him than Avon wishes to
> give.>
One thing you can say for Vila (and of later, This Space for Rent Cally
but not Guerilla Cally): he doesn't initiate a lot of plans with a high
capacity
for fatality.
>
>
>He compounds this with a habit of turning his back on the very
> person he *is* talking at or who's talking to him (particularly in the
third
> series, I counted up the number one time, and it's fairly impressive).
But the blocking of B7 episodes is often very peculiar--hardly anyone
actually talks TO anyone.

-(Y)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 19:27:28 -0700
From: Mistral <mistral@centurytel.net>
To: B7 lyst <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]  Avon as loner? (was Dorian and Avon and *is* long ...)
Message-ID: <39F3A210.B969B657@centurytel.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Dana Shilling wrote:
> 
> Sally said:
> > I love that line in Horizon, the quiet satisfaction of his "I am not alone
> > after all".
> To me, it didn't sound like "quiet satisfaction," it sounded like the "oh,
> bugger" was silent.

I don't see any reason it can't be both, which IMHO it is. Avon is very
aware of his own ambivalence coming to the fore in this episode.

> >He compounds this with a habit of turning his back on the very
> > person he *is* talking at or who's talking to him (particularly in the
> third
> > series, I counted up the number one time, and it's fairly impressive).
> But the blocking of B7 episodes is often very peculiar--hardly anyone
> actually talks TO anyone.

Play fair, Dana, blocking is out of bounds ;-) apart from that, I have
to agree with Sally on this one - it's not unusual to hear one of my
friends say 'She's not talking to you; she's looking at you, so she must
be talking to me.'

Mistral

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 22:30:35 EDT
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian and Avon and *is* long ...)
Message-ID: <fb.cae9d22.2724fccb@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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Sally wrote:

> As I said, IMHO he talks *at* them, not *to* them (yes even when and 
>  especially when it's not crisis/'work' related. 

I understand that you were giving your opinion, and I was providing my view.  
I think Avon was great friends with the third-season crew.   Avon voluntarily 
spent leisure time with them.  And as Dorian aptly pointed out, the lot of 
them had bonded. 

>  I couldn't - you couldn't.  My Avon is more than capable of it, but he 
isn't 
>  you or me.  On the evidence on screen, he's almost totally indifferent to 
>  them as people.

But you've also said that DEATH-WATCH Avon isn't your Avon.  Your Avon is 
someone who is somewhat edited from the character who actually appears on the 
screen. 

>  A very *stupid* medical doctor.

What do you base that judgment on?  The few minutes we see of him, he appears 
to be bright, knowledgeable and capable.  
  
>  Okay, we'll amend my sentence if we must.  It's clear that none of the 
>  others are up to thinking of anything half-way sensible for themselves.

That's terribly insulting to all of them, and to Avon.  He's not so stupid 
that he's going to place his life in the hands of a team of half-wits.  He 
appeared to respect his fourth-season shipmates, their abilities, and their 
skills.  None of them were perfect, including Avon, but they were all 
exceptionally capable. 

>  As for your other examples - both Tarrant and Soolin were quite good at 
>  acting on the fly, swiftly and without too much thought or planning 

It takes a very bright person to be able to act swiftly and successfully. 
Anyone who can do that, can also do long-range planning.  Both Tarrant's past 
and Soolin's past suggest people who worked on their own, made plans, and 
carried them out.  You don't survive as a deserter or an eight-year old 
orphan without having wits about you.

> Which 
>  is why they went along with Avon even when they [a] knew he'd kept stuff 
>  from them, [b] really had misgivings or even disliked what he was 
suggesting 

I disagree. Anything any of them might have come up with would have included 
a degree of risk.  They were all willing to accept some risk.  Vila less than 
the others. <g>   If Avon's plans were more risky than they were comfortable 
with, they were capable of opposing him.  We saw that when Dayna and Tarrant 
blew up the Muller android.

Betty wrote: 

> Actually, I do think Tarrant & Soolin's goofy drugged-up act is better
>  than Avon's innocent act, but that ain't exactly saying much...  

However, you haven't given Tarrant extra points for keeping a straight face 
when he did his "bald dwarf" lines in DAWN.  I think that performance was 
Tony Award material.

>  No, actually, come to think of it, *Blake* does a really good
>  bit of improvisational acting with the Andromedans... 

I agree; Blake was a very good actor.  Which was unfortunate.  It was his 
bounty hunter performance that got him killed.

>  I think this is a fault they *all* suffer from to one degree or another,
>  actually.  (Though it may not be *entirely* a personality thing...  You
>  could probably make an argument that the kind of life they're leading
>  encourages this sort of thing, if only because at some point people are
>  going to reach the limit of their ability to stay ahead of an
>  intrinsically unpredictable environment.) 

You've made an excellent point about why none of them had much opportunity to 
do long-range planning.  It was all they could do to stay half a day ahead of 
the executioner.  Also, the odds against them were overwhelming.  There 
simply weren't any surefire plans that any of them could have come up with.

Carol Mc

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 12:59:26 EST
From: "J MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian and Avon and *is* long ...)
Message-ID: <F5IHNkjgJKVApwOLZCH0000bf99@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

>From: Mac4781@aol.com
>But you've also said that DEATH-WATCH Avon isn't your Avon.

He might be Mistral's. <looks around warily> No, I don't think I'll get on 
that particular hobby-horse just now, so lead him back to the stable, 
please, and give him a few lumps of sugar. Or maybe an apple.

Regards
Joanne



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Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 22:10:49 -0600
From: Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org>
To: B7 Lyst <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian and Avon and *is* long ...)
Message-ID: <39F3BA49.474930C@sdc.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Responding to Sally, Carol Mc wrote:

> But you've also said that DEATH-WATCH Avon isn't your Avon.  Your Avon is 
> someone who is somewhat edited from the character who actually appears on the 
> screen. 

I think that's true for *everybody's* Avon, though...

And responding to me:

> However, you haven't given Tarrant extra points for keeping a straight face
> when he did his "bald dwarf" lines in DAWN.  I think that performance was
> Tony Award material.

Oh, I hereby freely grant them to him!  IMO, that's probably Tarrant's
best line, ever.  (Pity it had to come in such an otherwise crappy
episode.)
 
> >  No, actually, come to think of it, *Blake* does a really good
> >  bit of improvisational acting with the Andromedans...
> 
> I agree; Blake was a very good actor.  Which was unfortunate.  It was his
> bounty hunter performance that got him killed.

[Wince]  Ouch.  Too true.

> You've made an excellent point about why none of them had much opportunity to
> do long-range planning.  It was all they could do to stay half a day ahead of
> the executioner.  Also, the odds against them were overwhelming.  There
> simply weren't any surefire plans that any of them could have come up with.

Oddly enough, it seems to me that the *best* plans they came up with
tended to be the ones that failed most spectacularly.  (I *still* think
the Warlord alliance was a mighty fine idea, in principle.)


-- 
Betty Ragan ** ragan@sdc.org ** http://www.sdc.org/~ragan/
"I love hearing that lonesome wail of the train whistle as
the magnitude of the frequency of the wave changes due to 
the Doppler effect."  -- Sidney Harris

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 21:34:32 -0700
From: Mistral <mistral@centurytel.net>
To: B7 lyst <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian and Avon and *is* long ...)
Message-ID: <39F3BFD8.12660F6@centurytel.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Joanne wrote:
> 
> >From: Mac4781@aol.com
> >But you've also said that DEATH-WATCH Avon isn't your Avon.
> 
> He might be Mistral's. <looks around warily> No, I don't think I'll get on
> that particular hobby-horse just now, so lead him back to the stable,
> please, and give him a few lumps of sugar. Or maybe an apple.

No, I thought I'd been clear that I'm <ahem> Not Terribly Fond of
Deathwatch; I have to distract myself by looking at, er, Other Things. 

Mind you I can't bring myself to throw out any of the eps; makes it more
realistic, after all, one doesn't usually like everything about one's
friends; and even Deathwatch has some nice moments - Vila chasing Cally
off the flight deck, Dayna not wanting to share Vinni's senses, Avon's
reaction to Max shaking his hand, for example. 

Mistral

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 06:52:29 GMT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Had to be seen to be ... believed?
Message-ID: <LAW-F281YP9sKYrZfNi00008eb9@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

I guess if we couldn't Suspend Disbelief a looonng way, we wouldn’t be fans 
of this show.  However, I was thinking about this ...

What do people have most problems swallowing?  The science? (DotG, for 
instance - Black hole ahoy! Or Justin's experiments?)  The SFX? (actually, 
the Andromedan's addiction to Kitchen front ship design never bothered me 
...) The characters? (Now this is *definitely* my field - trying to take 
Governor le Grande seriously ... oh dear oh dear).

So when do *you* hear that little mental 'twang' when said suspension gives 
way entirely?  (And no fair writing 'when reading one of Sally's longer 
posts', thank you :-) Stick to the script.)


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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 06:53:05 GMT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] I didn't say he *paid* for them ...
Message-ID: <LAW-F262jT3XOYR00Hg00008e89@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

A question.  Who else thinks that Vila would pick up all sorts of dreadful, 
wonderful souvenirs on all the more civilised planets we *don't* see Our 
Heroes visiting?



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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 06:55:22 GMT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L]  Avon as loner? (was Dorian and Avon and *is* long ...)
Message-ID: <LAW-F194Upm0RnzXotJ00008816@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Dana says :
<Sally: He stays wary of Blake - understandable as, while Vila and Cally are 
prepared to take him as he is, Blake has the irritating habit of asking more 
of him than Avon wishes to give.>

Errr ... no, that was Marian :-) and I disagreed with her.

Dana goes on:
<One thing you can say for Vila (and of later, This Space for Rent Cally but 
not Guerilla Cally): he doesn't initiate a lot of plans with a high capacity 
for fatality.>

Actually, does Vila initiate any plans *at all*??  (Well, I'd guess he put 
forward quite a few involving bars, rest centres and luxury resorts full of 
badly-secured riches, but for some reason they never got very far with 
either of his Leaders, Fearless or Downright-Frightening).

<The blocking of B7 episodes is often very peculiar--hardly anyone actually 
talks TO anyone.>

There's some rather strange angles, true.  I believe that the flight deck of 
the Liberator was extremely difficult to shoot.

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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 06:56:36 GMT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Planning and acting skills (was Re: Avon as loner?)
Message-ID: <LAW-F1344MHvi6y07vQ0000932c@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Betty wrote:
<Responding to Carol Mc, Sally Manton wrote: <Did we watch the same show? >

Hey now, play fair, *I* didn't say that ... (what is this, 
misquote-Sally-week?)

<No, actually, come to think of it, *Blake* does a really good bit of 
improvisational acting with the Andromedans...  Yet another reason to lament 
his disappearance.>

I'll lament along with you, but I'm not so sure that does count as acting - 
it's Blake's absolutely-standard gut-reaction to Ugly Authority (and fast 
thinking to counter those questions).

Of course, if you believe he was bluffing when he threatened Kayn, that's a 
brilliant piece of low-key acting (for that matter, his threatening Travis 
and Servalan with the Phobon disk ain't bad).  This, of course, doesn't 
quite work if you don't think he *was* bluffing ...

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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 06:58:03 GMT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Avon as loner? (part 1)
Message-ID: <LAW-F272cB9sQFtf2Ty00008eaf@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Carol wrote:
<Avon voluntarily spent leisure time with them.>

Didn't have a hell of a lot of choice, did he?  They're on a big ship out in 
space and, once he's studied every single circuit on the Liberator (twice), 
there appears to be precious little for him - or any of them - to *do*.  (I 
think this is especially true at the start of Children of Auron, where he's 
a million very unpleasant miles away anyway) He played board games with 
Jenna too - and from the look on his face he was losing - and no one will 
ever convince me they were great friends.

Actually, now that I think of it <veg> board and card games and the like are 
always a very good way to fill in time with people (like relatives) you 
don't really have all that much to talk about with ...

Sarcophagus indicates fairly strongly that they're all suffering from a bad 
case of ennui and looking for ways to fill time, of which these would be one 
(drawing and playing musical instruments very badly being others). There 
were unquestionably a lot of very dull hours to fill in on the flight deck, 
especially once someone had taken his damned ball - errr cause - and 
disappeared.

<And as Dorian aptly pointed out, the lot of them had bonded.>

Let's not ever-estimate the sleaze-bag's omniscience here - I really *don't* 
agree with the view that he's got some sort of mystic insight into Our 
Hero's Hearts. Dorian isn't a telepath or an alien super-being who knows 
instinctively what people half-way across the galaxy (who would be 
hard-pressed to express their feelings at gun-point) are feeling, so we 
don't have to take what he says as Gospel Truth. He doesn't *know* how Avon 
or the others feel, he's working on what evidence he's picked up as an 
outsider who's studied them. What Dorian says isn't canon.

Yes, I agree there were bonds (the sort that develop between soldiers in a 
war) but those sort don't have to have much in the way of *personal* 
attachment to be there.  Someone you depend on to survive tends to be 
important to you even if you can't stand them.

<But you've also said that DEATH-WATCH Avon isn't your Avon.  Your Avon is 
someone who is somewhat edited from the character who actually appears on 
the screen.>

'Death-Watch' Avon isn’t Avon as I know him, true.  He's a milk-and-water 
pudding-person version of the character.  But no, I don't think I've edited 
him, that's not Playing the Game (everything in the series has an 
explanation.  I even manage to explain Power ... albeit as Vila's bad dream)

I simply find an explanation for his un-Avonness that I can live with.  This 
(as I have mentioned before) is that Avon develops a tummy bug round about 
the start of this one (he looks distinctly more sick than he does in 
episodes where he's *supposed* to, like Orac).  'Tis hard to be your normal 
svelte-and-sardonic self when you are green around the gills (yes, I know 
nausea and Other Symptoms don't normally suit the Fantasy Object, but that's 
not my problem). And why does he agree to join in the whole rather nasty 
shebang (sorry, but I'm with Cally. I never liked bread and circuses when it 
was the Romans. I don't like it any better in outer space) with the rest? 
Because Avon *would not* admit to such a humiliating illness unless 
absolutely forced to - and a tummy bug isn’t bad enough to force him to.  So 
we get him acting semi-normal (and being thoroughly un-him in the bargain, 
much to Sally's displeasure.)

This also nicely explains him putting on that Matador jacket - when you're 
feeling cruddy, you don't tend to think too hard about what you're doing 
first thing in the morning.

(PS - Joanne, Mistral, does this let him off the hook?)

<What do you base that judgment on?  The few minutes we see of him, he 
appears to be bright, knowledgeable and capable. >

The fact that he doesn't see through them in three seconds flat, of course.  
If 'tis My Opinion that anyone but a half-wit would see through Tarrant (and 
it is My Opinion, just as it is My Opinion about the slavers in Assassin and 
would be about Blake in Gambit if we hadn't luckily cut just at the moment 
he IMHO said "okay you two what the hell are you up to???") then the doctor 
who didn't see through him is unquestionably a half-wit.

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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 07:07:30 GMT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Avon as loner? (part 1)
Message-ID: <LAW-F262idogkrjeSDb00008e95@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Carol went on:
<That's terribly insulting to all of them, and to Avon.  He's not so stupid 
that he's going to place his life in the hands of a team of half-wits.>

No it's not, because that's not what I said.  As I think you've said about 
other characters (and I agreed) they're not perfect - they are all of them 
gifted in their own ways, but they have their faults, lots of faults. And 
one of them for the Scorpio lot (except Avon) is an inability to think very 
far ahead.

As always, IMHO ...

Soolin isn't Wonder Girl - she's a cool, hard-headed sensible woman who's 
lived a very hard life and tends to go for the immediate short-term 
advantage (like Dorian, methinks) possibly because that's all she's ever 
known. After all, look at the way she lets these people take over both the 
base and the ship without so much as a "they're mine by rights, what do I 
get in return?" (Actually, one has to wonder if Soolin's inability to think 
very far ahead isn’t a self-induced thing, born of the fact that for most of 
her life, doing so was painful and possibly pointless).

Vila isn't a Loveable Cockney Alpha-in-disguise - he's a genuine, 
incorrigible criminal who can actually think as fast as any of the rest of 
them (from all 4 seasons, including Avon and Blake IMO) when he *has* to - 
that is, in a crisis.  But for the most part he doesn't care for thinking at 
all, prefers to let things slide because that makes life easier, and his 
mental fickleness makes him way too easily swayed (Hostage and Voice being 
prime examples) - he not only doesn't think very far ahead, he changes his 
mind at nearly every ill wind.

Tarrant isn't a Scout-Leader-Sir-Lancelot-Boy-Wonder - he's an exceptionally 
gifted pilot and extremely, *pragmatically* sharp man who happens to also be 
short-sighted and almost totally lacking in common sense or the gift of 
forward thinking. Lives totally in the 'here and very much now'; I don't 
think the future, his or anyone else's, has any *real* meaning for him.

Dayna isn't ... um.  Actually she's a very good technician (or so we're 
told) and someone else can describe her good points 'cause I've never 
pretended that I can see them.

I once said about the first season crew that "they are the human tools Blake 
has to work with".  These are the human tools Avon has.  They're a gifted 
group (actually the whole nine of 'em, Liberator and Scorpio both, are quite 
extraordinary people, each in his/her own right), but that doesn't mean they 
are Paragons of All the Virtues, any more than Avon is (or the earlier ones 
are).

<It takes a very bright person to be able to act swiftly and successfully. 
Anyone who can do that, can also do long-range planning.>

That we won’t be able to discuss, since I don’t think it's true at all - the 
two take hugely different skills (battle or field commanders don't always 
make good or even adequate war commanders).  There's also the opposite type 
in Travis, who is great at meticulous planning but can never cope when 
something throws the plan into disarray and he has to come up with something 
fast.


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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 02:11:44 -0600
From: Penny Dreadful <pennydreadful@powersurfr.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Had to be seen to be ... believed?
Message-Id: <4.1.20001023020945.0093eb00@mail.powersurfr.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 06:52 AM 10/23/00 +0000, Sally Manton wrote:

>So when do *you* hear that little mental 'twang' when said suspension gives 
>way entirely?

When Servalan starts crying.
--
"How real do you feel, Mrs. Peel?"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 01:30:21 -0700
From: Mistral <mistral@centurytel.net>
To: B7 lyst <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (part 1)
Message-ID: <39F3F71D.C5126C4E@centurytel.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sally Manton wrote:

> This also nicely explains him putting on that Matador jacket - when you're
> feeling cruddy, you don't tend to think too hard about what you're doing
> first thing in the morning.
> 
> (PS - Joanne, Mistral, does this let him off the hook?)

<g> No. It was in his closet, after all - unless you think he dragged
his tummy bug down to the wardrobe room that morning to get something
cheerful to wear; but if that's his idea of cheerful... no, I'm sticking
to my wardrobe-as-extraversion-of-self-image theory. 

Besides which, Avon isn't grumpy enough in Deathwatch to be ill. Compare
with 'Orac'. I wish he were ill, though - any excuse is better than
none. 

Mistral

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 08:31:22 GMT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Dorian and Avon]
Message-ID: <LAW-F1718H23KqiReEJ00003b2a@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Ellynne writes:
<given the incredible resemblance between Tarrant and his brother (who, 
you'll recall, had even taken to wearing a rather unconvincing wig to try 
and downplay it) ...>

Actually, one of my non-B7 relatives said to me the other week "the one 
thing I remember is that the characters all had all these identical 
relatives," and I sort of looked at him and heard myself say "well, 
actually, only the ones with curls ..."  (Tarrant - Del and Deeta; Blake and 
Cally and their clones).


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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 08:35:12 GMT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (part 1)
Message-ID: <LAW-F74IhTrBoe2U8QV00000fa6@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Mistral wrote:
<I'm sticking to my wardrobe-as-extraversion-of-self-image theory.>

Do I want to know how this theory works with Dayna and Cally as well?

<Besides which, Avon isn't grumpy enough in Deathwatch to be ill.>

<grin> how do you tell the difference? (having recently watched bot Orac 
*and* Redemption ...)




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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 01:52:55 -0700
From: Mistral <mistral@centurytel.net>
To: B7 lyst <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Dayna (was Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (part 1))
Message-ID: <39F3FC67.12F158D7@centurytel.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sally Manton wrote:

> Dayna isn't ... um.  Actually she's a very good technician (or so we're
> told) and someone else can describe her good points 'cause I've never
> pretended that I can see them.

She's loyal, pragmatic, not easily frightened of things she can
comprehend - the one place I remember her being really frightened is in
Rescue, of Dorian's creature. Eager to learn and a self-starter. Takes
people at face value - that can be a plus or a minus but I like it in
her. Actually cares about her crewmates - yes, they all do to an extent,
but Dayna's not afraid to show it; in fact she may very well be the most
emotionally healthy and stable of the lot of them. I think she probably
had the closest to a normal, nurturing childhood, and the most freedom,
which seems to have made her a very strong, open person. (Compare to
Soolin who is the same or a very similar personality type, but not
nearly as open.) Dayna is most interesting for me when I remember that
she's really a very young person who's lived a fairly circumscribed
existence, and then she emerges into the wider galaxy in the company of
this bunch of rebels and outlaws. Somehow I don't think that's what
either Hal Mellanby or Avon had in mind for her, do you? 

Mistral

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 02:04:14 -0700
From: Mistral <mistral@centurytel.net>
To: B7 lyst <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (part 1)
Message-ID: <39F3FF0E.B5E77254@centurytel.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sally Manton wrote:
> 
> Mistral wrote:
> <I'm sticking to my wardrobe-as-extraversion-of-self-image theory.>
> 
> Do I want to know how this theory works with Dayna and Cally as well?

I don't apply it generally, just to Avon. I do think Dayna's
third-series wardrobe adds to her characterization substantially,
though. 

> <Besides which, Avon isn't grumpy enough in Deathwatch to be ill.>
> 
> <grin> how do you tell the difference? (having recently watched bot Orac
> *and* Redemption ...)

<g> Surely you can see the difference between Orac and Deathwatch? Avon
can be as stubborn as the sky is full of stars, when it comes to
standing up to torture, but I think he's a complete misery when he's
_ill_. And a terrible patient, I think you've said that yourself.
Best-case scenario, he hides in his cabin with the door locked. The
reason he didn't do that in Orac was because he only trusted himself to
man the teleport, but he was quite definite about not wanting any
company at it. 

Mistral

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 09:58:40 GMT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (part 1)
Message-ID: <LAW-F7jc0D543TuylJc000011ca@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Mistral wrote:
<<g> Surely you can see the difference between Orac and Deathwatch?>

Yes, but throw his perfectly healthy but less sweet-natured moments from 
Redemption et al into the mix and it gets a bit harder. Though I suppose one 
could argue that Doing the Right Thing hurts just as much as 
stomach-or-tooth-ache ...

<Avon can be as stubborn as the sky is full of stars, when it comes to 
standing up to torture, but I think he's a complete misery when he's _ill_.>

Were it serious (even life-threatening), I think he would be okay, accept 
whatever was necessary and put up with the necessary medical intrusion as 
gracefully as possible (which of course means not very :-)).  But minor 
and/or embarrassing ailments?  Yep.  A misery that takes the 
Bug-That's-Going-Round as a personal insult in the bargain.

<And a terrible patient, I think you've said that yourself.>

I'm absolutely sure I have, and that just about everyone except Soolin and 
*maybe* Cally would drive him nuts trying to nurse him (the picture of Jenna 
or Vila trying to is a great joy).

<Best-case scenario, he hides in his cabin with the door locked.>

Even better-case scenario, Blake makes Vila unlock the door (do remember, I 
am a fan of dumping on Avon).

To be fair, though, I really can't see many of the rest being much better 
when just sick and feeling rotten (as apart from in real danger). Possibly 
Cally and Gan ... maybe Jenna (though it's more fun to try and imagine her a 
damp rag when sick, it just doesn't work).



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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 07:49:51 -0400
From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] bfi poll
Message-ID: <200010230750_MC2-B80E-6C99@compuserve.com>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
	 charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Disposition: inline

Jacqui wrote:
>But such persons as Avon are far more 'fun' (and consider - =

>why are there several Richard III societies and none for =

>Henrys VI & VII etc)

I can't now remember if Tudor has a fan club (I did have a close friend w=
ho
was rather keen on him), but there is one for Henry VI, whose principal a=
im
as I remember is to campaign for his canonisation.  And the RIIIS to whic=
h
I belong promotes the line that Richard was a non-murdering, hard-working=

administrator, though I had a sneaking sympathy with the devil's advocate=
s
who argued that if he didn't kill his nephews he should have done.  The
jolly Shakespearean version is fun, but not very canonical.

ObB7: there appears to be an affinity between B7 and RIII fandoms.  I've
found enough people who belong to both to crew a large spaceship called
White Surrey.

By the way, is there some way we can push the fact that we won the BFI
Favourite British Television Programme poll - eg everyone writing in to
demand that the BBC show season two could mention it?

Harriet

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 14:04:37 +0200
From: Jacqueline Thijsen <inquisitioner@wish.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Cc: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.com>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Review: Travis 2 miniature
Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.0.20001023135912.009db0d0@pop3.wish.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 16:03 22-10-00 +0100, Julia Jones wrote:
>The costume is almost entirely black, of course, but Kelvin's done a
>nice job on picking out matt and gloss details on the black, which gives
>it interest and makes it more realistic looking. The chest insignia and
>barley sugar on the finger are present and correct. The new painting
>technique being used on the face gives excellent results.

I second all that, and would like to add that IMO Kelvin's done an 
absolutely astonishing job.

>Recommended for those who collect miniatures.

And also for FINALACT acolytes. Mine's on the TV now, staring arrogantly 
across my living room. All it needs is a Servalan to keep it company (hint, 
hint).

Jacqueline

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 09:26:07 -0400
From: "Christine+Steve" <cgorman@idirect.com>
To: "B7 Mailing List" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Had to be seen to be ... believed?
Message-ID: <005b01c03cf4$dfe83dc0$9f109ad8@cgorman>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
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Sally Manton asked :

> I guess if we couldn't Suspend Disbelief a looonng way, we wouldn't be
fans
> of this show.  However, I was thinking about this ...
>
> What do people have most problems swallowing?  The science? (DotG, for
> instance - Black hole ahoy! Or Justin's experiments?)  The SFX? (actually,
> the Andromedan's addiction to Kitchen front ship design never bothered me
> ...) The characters? (Now this is *definitely* my field - trying to take
> Governor le Grande seriously ... oh dear oh dear).

I was never that sure about the science behind the auto-repair systems.  I
could see how an advanced technology could have designed it, but even the
Federation had a version, with the defense zone around the original Central
Control.  On the Liberator it seemed any tiny or huge piece of equipment
could be re-created, as long as there was enough available power - only
running out of energy in Terminal.  It seems that the Liberator could turn
energy into mass at will.  In Moloch, the alien system there took mass and
re-arranged it, which I guess isn't too far from teleport technology (and is
also how the replicators in Trek worked), but I'm not too sure about being
able to create mass from energy.

Steve Dobson.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 09:31:16 -0600
From: Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org>
To: B7 Lyst <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Had to be seen to be ... believed?
Message-ID: <39F459C4.53C6E7A4@sdc.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sally Manton wrote:

> What do people have most problems swallowing?  The science? (DotG, for
> instance - Black hole ahoy! Or Justin's experiments?)  The SFX? (actually,
> the Andromedan's addiction to Kitchen front ship design never bothered me
> ...) 

Bad science and bad effects I can usually ignore (indeed, as far as the
FX go, I think I tend to mentally edit them into something more
convincing).  There are occasional times when a particular egregiously
bad example of one or the other causes problems for me, though. 
"Moloch," for instance, manages it on *both* counts.

> The characters? (Now this is *definitely* my field - trying to take
> Governor le Grande seriously ... oh dear oh dear).

Forget Le Grande, the unforgivable character sin in "Voice" was making
Ven Glynd into a good guy.

> So when do *you* hear that little mental 'twang' when said suspension gives
> way entirely? 

Well, as I mentioned on the Other List recently, there are *two*
examples in "Orac," including the one and only bit of aired B7 that I
can not, no way, no how, accept as canonical: the "scenes from last
week" log entry thing at the beginning.  The other one is the end, where
Servalan delays letting Travis kill Blake for what are far *too*
obviously script reasons and not character reasons.  (Which sort of
thing happens a lot, admittedly, but usually there's at least *some*
in-character justification for it.)

-- 
Betty Ragan ** ragan@sdc.org ** http://www.sdc.org/~ragan/
"I love hearing that lonesome wail of the train whistle as
the magnitude of the frequency of the wave changes due to 
the Doppler effect."  -- Sidney Harris

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 09:32:03 -0600
From: Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org>
To: B7 Lyst <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] I didn't say he *paid* for them ...
Message-ID: <39F459F3.6F0C14B1@sdc.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sally Manton wrote:

> A question.  Who else thinks that Vila would pick up all sorts of dreadful,
> wonderful souvenirs on all the more civilised planets we *don't* see Our
> Heroes visiting?

I like the idea of him collecting snow globes, personally...

-- 
Betty Ragan ** ragan@sdc.org ** http://www.sdc.org/~ragan/
"I love hearing that lonesome wail of the train whistle as
the magnitude of the frequency of the wave changes due to 
the Doppler effect."  -- Sidney Harris

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 09:35:35 -0600
From: Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org>
To: B7 Lyst <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]  Avon as loner? (was Dorian and Avon and *is* long ...)
Message-ID: <39F45AC7.8049D666@sdc.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sally Manton wrote:

> Actually, does Vila initiate any plans *at all*??  (Well, I'd guess he put
> forward quite a few involving bars, rest centres and luxury resorts full of
> badly-secured riches, but for some reason they never got very far with
> either of his Leaders, Fearless or Downright-Frightening).

Vila plans that actually got acted on: Taking some time off to watch the
Teal-Vandor fight.  Going to Del 10 for some atmospheric beta particles
(although that got interrupted).  Oh, and that asteroid thing, I
suppose...

-- 
Betty Ragan ** ragan@sdc.org ** http://www.sdc.org/~ragan/
"I love hearing that lonesome wail of the train whistle as
the magnitude of the frequency of the wave changes due to 
the Doppler effect."  -- Sidney Harris

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 09:40:48 -0600
From: Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org>
To: B7 Lyst <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Planning and acting skills (was Re: Avon as loner?)
Message-ID: <39F45C00.DCEC52AF@sdc.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sally Manton wrote:

> Betty wrote:
> <Responding to Carol Mc, Sally Manton wrote: <Did we watch the same show? >
> 
> Hey now, play fair, *I* didn't say that ... (what is this,
> misquote-Sally-week?)

Oops, sorry.  Got a bit carried away trying to quote you and Carol at
the same time...

> <No, actually, come to think of it, *Blake* does a really good bit of
> improvisational acting with the Andromedans...  Yet another reason to lament
> his disappearance.>
> 
> I'll lament along with you, but I'm not so sure that does count as acting -
> it's Blake's absolutely-standard gut-reaction to Ugly Authority (and fast
> thinking to counter those questions).

Well, the fast thinking impresses me the most, but I also thought he was
doing a reasonably good Travis impression.  (Well, OK, maybe not Travis
*specifically*, but "arrogant and ruthless Federation type," yes.)

> Of course, if you believe he was bluffing when he threatened Kayn, that's a
> brilliant piece of low-key acting (for that matter, his threatening Travis
> and Servalan with the Phobon disk ain't bad).  This, of course, doesn't
> quite work if you don't think he *was* bluffing ...

I'm *still* not sure whether he was or not...

-- 
Betty Ragan ** ragan@sdc.org ** http://www.sdc.org/~ragan/
"I love hearing that lonesome wail of the train whistle as
the magnitude of the frequency of the wave changes due to 
the Doppler effect."  -- Sidney Harris

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 08:08:50 +0100
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian and Avon and *is* long ...)
Message-ID: <001801c03d1a$11be44a0$e535fea9@neilfaulkner>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Y'know, it's rather fun watching a bit of fur flying around on the Lyst
whilst knowing that just for once I had nothing to do with it:)

As I recall, Avon was nearly always in someone or other's company when we
see him, and if he was on his own then there were usually solid plot
reasons.  Also, no one ever said, "Where's that little weasel hiding now?"
or "Maybe he thinks we smell funny."  Any ideas of Avon spending most of his
time brooding in isolation and shunning the proximity of his fellow crew
probably come from reading too much fanfic.  It wasn't in the series.  Maybe
the notion of Avon-as-loner arose from the way he can distance himself
emotionally from people (and situations in general) even when he's in close
physical proximity to them.  Hence the notion (quite wrong, IMO) of poor
ickle wounded Avon hiding in his shell from the nasty big world.

Sounds more to me like an arrogant big-nosed bastard sneering down his snoot
at the brainless riffraff whose company he hav to kepe ect.

Neil

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 10:36:23 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.com>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] cult TV
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-1023093623-d07Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

Roger Murray Leech just had to cancel Cult TV due to work committments. (which
still leaves lots of other interesting people - it's a good convention)

Judith
-- 
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 -  Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs,
pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth
Thomas, etc.  (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.knightwriter.org )
Redemption '01  23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/

--------------------------------
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