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blakes7-d Digest				Volume 00 : Issue 276

Today's Topics:
  Re: [B7L] Anna & the nature of love   [ "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com ]
  Re: [B7L] Anna & the nature of love   [ "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com ]
  [B7L] Re: Anna                        [ "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com ]
  Re: [B7L] Introduction                [ "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet ]
  Re: [B7L] Anna & the nature of love   [ "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet ]
  Re: [B7L] Anna & the nature of love   [ "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet ]
  Re: [Re: [B7L] Anna & the nature of   [ Jacqui Speel <jacquispeel@netscape. ]
  cally's dead                          [ "Roger the Shrubber" <powerplay@che ]
  Re: [B7L] Re: Neil's conspiracy theo  [ "J MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.co ]
  Re: [B7L] Introduction                [ "J MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.co ]
  Re: [B7L] Re: Fantasy, satire and pr  [ "J MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.co ]
  Re: [B7L] Introduction                [ "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com> ]
  Re: [B7L] Introduction                [ "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com ]
  Re: [B7L] Anna & the nature of love   [ "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com ]
  [B7L] the nature of love              [ "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com ]
  Re: [B7L] Anna & the nature of love   [ Russ Massey <russ@wriding.demon.co. ]
  Re: [B7L] Introduction                [ "Marian de Haan" <maya@multiweb.nl> ]
  Re: [B7L] Re: Fantasy, satire and pr  [ "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.n ]
  Re: [B7L] Anna & the nature of love   [ "Marian de Haan" <maya@multiweb.nl> ]
  Re: [B7L] Introduction                [ Penny Dreadful <pennydreadful@power ]
  Re: [B7L] Anna & the nature of love   [ Julia Jones <Julia.lysator@jajones. ]
  Re: [B7L] Anna & the nature of love   [ "Marian de Haan" <maya@multiweb.nl> ]
  [B7L] Blake's 7 Movie                 [ GPrimeCEO@aol.com ]
  Re: [B7L] Anna & the nature of love   [ "Marian de Haan" <maya@multiweb.nl> ]
  [B7L] models                          [ Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.com ]
  Re: [B7L] Fantasy                     [ Natasa Tucev <tucev@tesla.rcub.bg.a ]
  Re: [B7L] Anna & the nature of love   [ Natasa Tucev <tucev@tesla.rcub.bg.a ]
  Re: [B7L] Anna & the nature of love   [ Natasa Tucev <tucev@tesla.rcub.bg.a ]
  Re: [B7L] Anna & the nature of love   [ Natasa Tucev <tucev@tesla.rcub.bg.a ]
  Re: [B7L] Anna & the nature of love   [ "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.con ]
  Re: [B7L] Anna & the nature of love   [ "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com ]
  Dreigroschenoper [was FW: [[B7L] Ter  [ Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@comp ]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2000 20:25:12 GMT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Anna & the nature of love
Message-ID: <LAW-F251H3b98KtdhQY00006d85@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

After I wrote:
<Of course <grin> it's also clear that full and frank discussion before 
every step of said FFF was also decided on, and Blake then calmly, blatantly 
and quite beeyootifully ignores *that* part of the agreement.>

Marian wrote:
<I'm always surprised that at that point Avon doesn't say:  "Okay, Blake, 
you can drop me off at KX 72.">

Blake *knew* he wouldn't (and nor would the rest of them - that's why he 
could do it). In fact, Avon's the first to (whether consciously or not) 
accept Blake's assumption of command ("Oh I will" ... conceding in three 
seconds flat that whoever leaves, it *won't* be Blake).

He's never silly enough to say the words 'my ship' to the rest of them 
(though he does to outsiders - starting even earlier than this with 
Vargas!!) but it's interesting that the crew do seem to assume his defacto 
ownership quite naturally (even Avon - or else he wouldn't assume that Blake 
and Blake only can *give* it to him).

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Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2000 20:36:28 GMT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Anna & the nature of love
Message-ID: <LAW-F14TttV7MQ7OoK400008a3f@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Marian wrote:
<I always feel sorry for Jenna because her loyalty to Blake seems to be 
poorly rewarded.>

Actually, I've seen this before, and it puzzles me a little, because ... 
exactly *what* do you expect Blake to reward her with?

Love? He seems to find her attractive, but is clearly not interested in a 
close relationaship (which is why I think he pushes her away) and can hardly 
be expected to pretend (now that *would* be insulting).

Loyalty in return? Yes, he's got a reserve there (Bounty, Horizon) - maybe 
he can't help it, but he holds it in check and *he alone* gives her the 
benefit of the doubt in Bounty, which is more than the rest are prepared to 
do (even Gan, despite her determination to risk the ship for him in 
Breakdown).

The Liberator when/if he goes? Not a skerrick of proof she asked for or 
wanted it for her own - she may have an even stronger aversion to the idea 
of leading a crew than Avon does (she certainly is poorly equipped to).

Appreciation for her work and skills? If you *actually watch the episodes* 
he gives this - and his thanks - quite readily and bountifully (more so than 
anyone else in all four seasons).

So what *is* it you think he should be doing? (And all minds out of the 
gutter - this is the Clean List).

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Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2000 20:46:28 GMT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: Anna
Message-ID: <LAW-F209gesHgjpS7G300008f59@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Harriet wrote:
<Sally continued to argue ...>

One must use the talents the Good Lord gave us <g>. Is it any wonder, I ask 
myself, that the two best and most creative arguers (by ten million miles) 
in the series are the ones I love the most?



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Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 16:33:04 -0400
From: "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet.att.net>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Introduction
Message-ID: <014e01c02cb3$7322c300$5fac4e0c@dshilling>
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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Ellynne G said:

> 1) First and foremost, what's the main evidence that Cally's dead? That
> Avon saw her body.  
But (whether or not there is any personal involvement between the two)
Avon has every reason to deny Cally's death rather than believe it
happened when it didn't. He surely needs all the crew members he can
get, and he needs to prove that "he doesn't get them killed"
> 
> 3) Cally's last words: "Blake" just doesn't do it for me.  Why shout
> that, of all things? It makes sense if she _thought_ she'd seen Blake
> but, unlike Avon, Cally is not overly obsessed in this direction 
But Cally can be in love with Blake in front of the BBC and everybody.

> 5) UNRESOLVED PLOT ISSUES!!!
> 
> Look, Hamlet does NOT begin with the prince getting the lowdown on the
> rottenness of Denmark only to have him trip, break his neck, and join his
> father in spectral analysis (so to speak).  
But Shakespeare stole his plots from better places.

-(Y)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 16:42:27 -0400
From: "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet.att.net>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Anna & the nature of love
Message-ID: <014f01c02cb3$758e44c0$5fac4e0c@dshilling>
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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Marian said:
>
> Actually, I don't see what's wrong with Blake being capable of the
> occasional selfish deed.  It's very human, and I prefer him to be human
> rather than a saint.  For me part of B7's attraction is that the hero is
not
> presented as a flawless, noble knight in shining armour.
I like this too, but I really wish Blake spent more time on persuasion and
less time ordering people (on and off the ship) around.
>
> I maintain that his taking command of Liberator can be considered selfish
> from where Jenna and Avon stand.  Fighting the Federation isn't in their
> best interest.  Both of them would have been better off with having
> abandoned him on Cygnus Alpha.
Or worked out a side deal for pardons and splitting the reward on his head--
which NEVER seems to have been a serious option for Avon
>
> I always feel sorry for Jenna because her loyalty to Blake seems to be
> poorly rewarded.
And I feel sorry for her because of the appalling lack of loyalty the
scriptwriters showed to her--why didn't they think of characterizing
her more fully and giving her more to do?

> Of course he'd rather die than admit this even to himself :-)  His
> justification - to himself, he doesn't take the trouble to justify himself
> to anybody else - may be something like:  "Well, it might be
> interesting/amusing to see what Blake can achieve, so let's stay around
for
> a while and find out."
Well, bearing in mind which list this is...but there's a simpler explanation
on the other one.
>
>
> Oh, How I'd love to have been present at that discussion :-)
One thing that frustrates me about the series is that a) this would
have been much more interesting than a lot of stuff that actually
occurs in canon and b) it would have been dead cheap, they had the
standing set already
>
> >Of course <grin> it's also clear that full and frank discussion before
> every step of said FFF was also decided on, and Blake then calmly,
blatantly
> and quite beeyootifully ignores *that* part of the agreement.<
It's often been said that discussion would have been pointless anyway--
well, it's true that a) Avon's opinion is already on record (with a virtuoso
set of variations on "you moron") b) he provides it anyway BUT how
does Blake know that the other have nothing to contribute before he asks?
>
> Blatantly disregarding the wishes and welfare of the others (freedom
> fighting does not make for a safe and long life).  I'm always surprised
that
> at that point Avon doesn't say:  "Okay, Blake, you can drop me off at KX
> 72."
Shortest-series-in-the-world joke.

-(Y)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 16:42:55 -0400
From: "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet.att.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Anna & the nature of love
Message-ID: <015001c02cb3$775b1580$5fac4e0c@dshilling>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
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Sally said:
>
> Avon, for someone who doesn't give a damn about people in general, does
> relate intensely when he does. His reaction at the end of both episodes is
> totally one-on-one personal IMO - loathing for Servalan in Killer,
> whatever-it-is-we-don't-agree-he-feels-for-Blake in Star One.
>
> Kairos/Terminal and surrendering the Liberator is another example. In
> Kairos, he's prepared to give up the Liberator to Seravaln to save himself
> and his crew. In Terminal, he's prepared to see himself, Blake, Cally and
> Tarrant dead first. No difference what it would mean to the rest of the
> galaxy, but all the difference in the world in who *he* thinks he'll have
to
> face with the knowledge he's done it ...

I think that for Avon, arrogance serves as a limiting factor on
selfishness--
that is, he feels that given his immense superiority to the dweebs and
losers Fate has saddled him with, he really has to protect them--which is
what he's doing in Kairos. And in Terminal, he was certainly willing to
take drastic steps to protect "his" crew; if they really had been umpty-
ump light years away the way he tried to send them...

BTW, considering its subject, perhaps this thread could be
called Anna and the King of "I Am"

-(Y)

------------------------------

Date:  2 Oct 00 14:20:05 PDT
From: Jacqui Speel <jacquispeel@netscape.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [Re: [B7L] Anna & the nature of love]
Message-ID: <20001002212005.13601.qmail@www0k.netaddress.usa.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

And Blake then adds 'OK - but I may need you' with the reply- 'See you in=

(two) weeks then.' =


"Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com> wrote:
After I wrote:
<Of course <grin> it's also clear that full and frank discussion before =

every step of said FFF was also decided on, and Blake then calmly, blatan=
tly =

and quite beeyootifully ignores *that* part of the agreement.>

Marian wrote:
<I'm always surprised that at that point Avon doesn't say:  "Okay, Blake,=
 =

you can drop me off at KX 72.">

Blake *knew* he wouldn't (and nor would the rest of them - that's why he =

could do it). In fact, Avon's the first to (whether consciously or not) =

accept Blake's assumption of command ("Oh I will" ... conceding in three =

seconds flat that whoever leaves, it *won't* be Blake).

He's never silly enough to say the words 'my ship' to the rest of them =

(though he does to outsiders - starting even earlier than this with =

Vargas!!) but it's interesting that the crew do seem to assume his defact=
o =

ownership quite naturally (even Avon - or else he wouldn't assume that Bl=
ake =

and Blake only can *give* it to him).

_________________________________________________________________________=

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.=


Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at =

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 20:12:25 +1000
From: "Roger the Shrubber" <powerplay@cheerful.com>
To: "blake's seven" <blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: cally's dead
Message-ID: <000401c02cc1$a1adb500$da8086cb@zen>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
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Ellynne wrote
However, you're making the classic error of assuming Cally died,
a point for which there is debatable evidence at best.
****
Well Avon _said_ she died & with big explosions going off,
there's not much reason to doubt him.

Are there many examples of Avon, throughout the whole series,
deliberately lying to his crewmates?  Who told the most porkies,
him or Blake ? Pressure Point alone would surely have Blake up
2 - 0.


darren r








Yes, shrubberies are my trade. I am a shrubber. My name is
Roger the Shrubber. I arrange, design and sell shrubberies.
-----------------------------------------
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 07:47:49 EST
From: "J MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Neil's conspiracy theories (was Typesetting preferences)
Message-ID: <F92RtDQGiKAe2hXSDx10000aaaa@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

>From: <B7Morrigan@aol.com>
> > And here I was thinking your hobby was watching the ones with 
>feathers...

Now you've got me remembering the can-can outfit Pat P wanted to dress Avon 
in. <grin> Bad move, for me at least.

Regards
Joanne
(the things you come back to after a long weekend!)



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Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 07:54:47 EST
From: "J MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Introduction
Message-ID: <F235ogS4MVIGcCiSv5K0000b7a9@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

>From: Jacqueline Thijsen <inquisitioner@wish.net>
>I'm going to think about that and if I decide that it means what I think it
>means, someone's going to be spending a long time in the comfy chair. With
>the teletubbies and the karaoke.

<looking around nervously, and beginning to gabble Vilaishly> Er, what do 
you think it means? I don't want you warming up the VCR unnecessarily, and 
do you have a licence for that karaoke machine? No, I forgot, *you* don't 
need one.

Regards
Joanne
(not meaning any particular object or person, really I don't)


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Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 07:57:40 EST
From: "J MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Fantasy, satire and princess brides
Message-ID: <F1710APOiLSO6YwVDo30000264a@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

>From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
> > I think Galadriel was at Menegroth at the time so she
> > could get a cameo.  The only change I'd make is have Morgoth let > Hurin 
>go a bit earlier so he could turn up in time to see Turin > throw himself 
>on Gurthang.
>Wasn't quite grim enough for you, was it, Neil?

Probably not enough in the way of penguins, either.

Regards
Joanne



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Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 23:07:51 -0600
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Introduction
Message-ID: <20001002.230811.-89135.0.rilliara@juno.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Mon, 2 Oct 2000 16:33:04 -0400 "Dana Shilling"
<dshilling@worldnet.att.net> writes:
> Ellynne G said:
> 
> > 1) First and foremost, what's the main evidence that Cally's dead? 
> That
> > Avon saw her body.  
> But (whether or not there is any personal involvement between the 
> two)
> Avon has every reason to deny Cally's death rather than believe it
> happened when it didn't. 

The guy's already had one conversation with one person who wasn't there
(and may still have chemicals from that experience floating around in his
system) and may still be suffering from sleep deprivation.  He is not
going to head my list of reliable witnesses.  Any lawyer alive who
couldn't make hash out of his reliability should be disbarred.

Also, hallucinations are not necessarily based on what the person _wants_
to see.  However, skipping this and the fact that I could tell you some
stories about people who had bad reactions to medications who, I think I
could make a fair case, didn't _want_ to see floating heads, attacking
armies of ants, or tree shadows doing very strange things up and down the
wall, if we are going with what Avon is _afraid_ of or what he _expects_,
I think worse case scenarios must have been rather high in his mind.
 
> > 5) UNRESOLVED PLOT ISSUES!!!
> > 
> > Look, Hamlet does NOT begin with the prince getting the lowdown on 
> the
> > rottenness of Denmark only to have him trip, break his neck, and 
> join his
> > father in spectral analysis (so to speak).  
> But Shakespeare stole his plots from better places.
> 
Got to concede that point.  However, I'm sure I'm not the only person who
gets a certain feeling when a recently killed off character in a story is
likely to make a full recovery. 

Stepping outside the show, I have to admit this is because the writers in
the third season (and some writers in the fourth) were unprepared for the
show to go on but for the actress to leave. It feels dramatically wrong
because it _is_.  There was no chance to set it up properly.

OTOH, (imitating Shakespeare), I'm going to steal a line from someone
else's story and incorporate it into B7.

"Never count a [character] dead until you see the body.  And, even then,
you can make a mistake."
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Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 08:18:12 GMT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Introduction
Message-ID: <LAW-F124QKL5zLw4ZAQ000091aa@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Ellynne finished her inspired defence of Cally-not-being-dead with the 
words:

<"Never count a [character] dead until you see the body.  And, even then, 
you can make a mistake.">

Too right you can. No one checked Blake's pulse, did they <veg>?

Okay ... anyone want to argue that Travis survived? Or Gan? Zen is *really* 
pushing it, I fear (though I have seen it, oh yes ...)

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Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 10:11:09 GMT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Anna & the nature of love
Message-ID: <LAW-F1536np2MZduE9b0000921e@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

After Marian wrote:
<I always feel sorry for Jenna because her loyalty to Blake seems to be 
poorly rewarded.>

Dana wrote:
<And I feel sorry for her because of the appalling lack of loyalty the 
scriptwriters showed to her - why didn't they think of characterizing her 
more fully and giving her more to do?>

You might say the same of Gan, Dayna, Soolin, and probably even Tarrant for 
the first part of the question (he did seem to get a lot to bustling about 
to do, but it didn't always make a lot of sense character-wise).

I do think the actress's inexperience had a fair bit to do with it ... she's 
not at all bad (especially in swapping lightly malicious insults with Avon 
at the start), but she does *clunk* a bit in moments of high drama (her 
speeches in the cell scenes in Bounty are a little cringe-worthy, and 
*every* time she says "what's going on Blake?" it thuds). And she simply 
doesn't have the strong chemistry with the others that the three male leads 
showed very early.

In The Way Back, both Vila and Jenna showed a lot of promise - Vila as a 
sly, possibly still cowardly, but slightly more edgy and streetwise 
character than he turned into, Jenna tough and sharp-tongued and very sure 
of herself. Neither promise was fulfilled, but Michael Keating was able to 
do so much more with what he was given.

It's all very well saying "the writers ought to have given equal time" but 
let us be fair - they're human, they tend to give their best lines and best 
work to the characters they find most satisfying and the actors they enjoy 
writing for. After all, let the fanfic writers of the list confess - how 
many of you have given equal weight to *every* member of the cast in your 
writing? And if one sat down and assessed a random sample of B7 fiction, 
what's the betting the emphasis overall would be on Avon, Vila, Blake and 
Servalan (not necessarily in that order)? Who writes stories for Slave?

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Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 10:14:56 GMT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] the nature of love
Message-ID: <LAW-F142ByvUsdBKGMu00007281@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

After I wrote:
<Avon takes on the defence of the galaxy because Blake wants it done, IMO.>

Alison said:
<And that is the great divide in a nutshell. Some come down on one side and 
some on the other. I don't think the evidence is more compelling for my view 
(certainly there are good arguments to be had on both sides) I choose it 
because it satisfies me more.>

<grin> And who am I to deny you the satisfaction? I just have trouble 
reconciling it in my *own* mind with Killer, Kairos/Terminal, Children of 
Auron/Rumours (there it's Anna instead of Blake, but the principle's the 
same - one person matters, the great whether-washed-or-not doesn't), Traitor 
...

<So I say 'Avon is fascinated by Blake because of the ideas' and not 
vice-versa. Just because that makes it more fun (for me).>

Oh, it's both, I think, but it's not just the ideas themselves - I still see 
Avon as almost totally apolitical until he's forced to take it up - it's the 
fact that Blake passionately believes in them, believes in the rights of 
others (even 'people he doesn't even know') and is prepared to give so 
totally of himself, to go to hell and back, for the ideas and the people.

Blake's vision gets to Avon, it both fascinates and infuriates him, and it's 
hard IMO for Avon to keep up with, in its depth and breadth. Blake is IMHO 
the only person apart (possibly, very dubiously possibly, Cally) in the main 
cast *with* any real vision beyond the here and now - he's involved in the 
past (his interest in history) present (the political present and his battle 
against the Federation) and future (his dream of a Federation-less 
humanity).

But let us be honest, 'tis unlikely that if all of this vision and passion 
came in the form of someone he hadn't taken an instinctive (if unwilling) 
liking to, who was earnest and high-minded and dull, the said person would 
have caught Avon's attention for twenty seconds, let alone two years or more 
... (Gan is good, and as moral as Blake, if in a simpler and more 
straightforward way. He has clear values and a sense of right and wrong, and 
belives as strongly and speaks out as clearly as Blake does. Does he get any 
brownie points or attention from My Darling? Not likely.)

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Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 08:30:28 +0100
From: Russ Massey <russ@wriding.demon.co.uk>
To: Sally Manton <smanton@hotmail.com>
Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Anna & the nature of love
Message-ID: <WuUxqDAUsY25EwsN@wriding.demon.co.uk>

In message <LAW-F14TttV7MQ7OoK400008a3f@hotmail.com>,
Sally Manton <smanton@hotmail.com> writes
>
>Loyalty in return? Yes, he's got a reserve there (Bounty, Horizon) - maybe 
>he can't help it, but he holds it in check and *he alone* gives her the 
>benefit of the doubt in Bounty, which is more than the rest are prepared to 
>do (even Gan, despite her determination to risk the ship for him in 
>Breakdown).
>
Now that surprises me. I can't remember that *anyone* gives Jenna
the benefit of doubt in Bounty. Why do you think that Blake does?
-- 
Russ Massey

------------------------------

Date:   Tue, 3 Oct 2000 19:18:52 +0200
From: "Marian de Haan" <maya@multiweb.nl>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Introduction
Message-ID: <000e01c02d5e$0639c940$43ed72c3@marian-de-haan.multiweb.nl>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
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Sally asked:
>Okay ... anyone want to argue that Travis survived?

I once suggested that he did and turned into Tarrant.  (Both names beginning
with a T... Very suggestive.)  :-)

Marian

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 07:28:38 +0100
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Fantasy, satire and princess brides
Message-ID: <000501c02d62$ba0c7f40$e535fea9@neilfaulkner>
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From: J MacQueen <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
> >From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
> > > I think Galadriel was at Menegroth at the time so she
> > > could get a cameo.  The only change I'd make is have Morgoth let >
Hurin
> >go a bit earlier so he could turn up in time to see Turin > throw himself
> >on Gurthang.
> >Wasn't quite grim enough for you, was it, Neil?
>
> Probably not enough in the way of penguins, either.

What do you think the Noegyth Nibin were?

Neil

------------------------------

Date:   Tue, 3 Oct 2000 19:35:40 +0200
From: "Marian de Haan" <maya@multiweb.nl>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Anna & the nature of love
Message-ID: <001b01c02d60$5a51e240$43ed72c3@marian-de-haan.multiweb.nl>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
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Regarding my:
><I always feel sorry for Jenna because her loyalty to Blake seems to be
poorly rewarded.><

Sally asked:
>Actually, I've seen this before, and it puzzles me a little, because ...
exactly *what* do you expect Blake to reward her with?<

Recognise her stake in Liberator (she *was* one of the salvagers) and give
her her share from Liberator's treasure room so she can buy her own
spacecraft.

The casual manner in which Blake promises Liberator to Avon always angers
me.  His "assuming the others go along with it" seems to me very much an
afterthought, as if he only then remembers the rest of his crew.  But
perhaps he expected them to stay with him on Earth? :-)

And all right, let's be fair - perhaps he was just a tiny bit shaken by the
wading-in-blood speech? ;-)

Marian

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 11:42:45 -0600
From: Penny Dreadful <pennydreadful@powersurfr.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Introduction
Message-Id: <4.1.20001003112331.0093dc10@mail.powersurfr.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 08:18 AM 10/3/00 +0000, Sally Manton wrote:

>Okay ... anyone want to argue that Travis survived? 

Easy! Obviously he was wearing some sort of body armour--he didn't bleed
when shot numerous times. And that big hole full of lights in the middle of
the floor can't be all that dangerous or they would have put a sturdier
railing around it. And so on and so forth. No sweat.

>Or Gan? 

Tres simple (simple): Faked own death to shoo Blake along, rescued by
Veron, they sneak out the back door together and continue the Good Fight. Aw!

>Zen is *really* pushing it, I fear 

Obvious! Transferred consciousness from Drive L(iberator) to Drive O(rac)
just before "expiring". Just waiting in zipped format for a new ship to be
put in.
--
      For A Dread Time, Call Penny:
http://members.tripod.com/~Penny_Dreadful/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 18:10:58 -0700
From: Julia Jones <Julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Anna & the nature of love
Message-ID: <XJMUlJAiC+15EwWl@jajones.demon.co.uk>

In message <f.9fd362e.2708dbb6@aol.com>, B7Morrigan@aol.com writes
>Yet "Star One" seems a rather large contridiction to this theory, a 
>willingness to kill millions of people to destroy the Federation.
>
We could go through that one again, but it's less than a year since the
last time - so I'll just summarize, and ask "where is your evidence that
millions of people would be killed by the destruction of Star One?"
Cally says "many, many people", which is not the same thing at all, and
the destruction shown in that episode is due to the Andromedans
manipulating the programming of Star One to create havoc, not to its
destruction. 

The havoc that the Andromedans were able to create by misusing Star One
is also the sort of thing the Federation could have done to any planet
whose climate was controlled from there, which suggests a very good
reason for it to be destroyed by the rebellion.
-- 
Julia Jones

------------------------------

Date:   Tue, 3 Oct 2000 20:13:50 +0200
From: "Marian de Haan" <maya@multiweb.nl>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Anna & the nature of love
Message-ID: <002801c02d65$b8d53060$43ed72c3@marian-de-haan.multiweb.nl>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
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To my:
>> Actually, I don't see what's wrong with Blake being capable of the
occasional selfish deed.  It's very human, and I prefer him to be human
rather than a saint.  For me part of B7's attraction is that the hero is not
presented as a flawless, noble knight in shining armour.<<

Dana replied:
>I like this too, but I really wish Blake spent more time on persuasion and
less time ordering people (on and off the ship) around.<

To be fair to Blake :-),  why bother with persuasion when the ordering
actually works?

>> I maintain that his taking command of Liberator can be considered selfish
from where Jenna and Avon stand.  Fighting the Federation isn't in their
best interest.  Both of them would have been better off with having
abandoned him on Cygnus Alpha.<<

>Or worked out a side deal for pardons and splitting the reward on his
head--which NEVER seems to have been a serious option for Avon<

That's his streak of honour tripping him up :-).  Note that the idea of
abandoning Blake doesn't enter his head before the very strong temptation of
the discovery of Liberator's treasure room.  And he seems to give in to
Jenna rather quickly in the struggle for control of the teleport.  Yes, he's
grabbing her arm to prevent her flicking the switches but in the next scene
he's stepped aside, leaving her free to activate the teleport.

Maybe Avon's bouts of bad temper are not caused by his irritation with Blake
but by all those cold showers of realising that he isn't half the ruthless
bastard he wants to be?  :-)

>> Of course he'd rather die than admit this even to himself :-)  His
justification - to himself, he doesn't take the trouble to justify himself
to anybody else - may be something like:  "Well, it might be
interesting/amusing to see what Blake can achieve, so let's stay around for
a while and find out."<<

>Well, bearing in mind which list this is...but there's a simpler
explanation on the other one.<

Not for me <grin>.  (And that's exactly why I'm not on the other list :-).)

Marian

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 14:29:11 EDT
From: GPrimeCEO@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Blake's 7 Movie
Message-ID: <e3.a83eb37.270b7f77@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I'm new to this list, but was wondering what, if any, information was 
available on the Blake's 7 movie that supposedly went into production in mid 
1999 with Daul Darrow and Michael Keating?  Was it ever broadcast/will it be 
broadcast.  Are there websites with info on it besides Horizon which has 
little to no info.

Thanks.

Lance

------------------------------

Date:   Tue, 3 Oct 2000 20:31:16 +0200
From: "Marian de Haan" <maya@multiweb.nl>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Anna & the nature of love
Message-ID: <003501c02d68$1fd9f3c0$43ed72c3@marian-de-haan.multiweb.nl>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Julia Jones wrote:
>In message <f.9fd362e.2708dbb6@aol.com, B7Morrigan@aol.com writes:
>>Yet "Star One" seems a rather large contridiction to this theory, a
willingness to kill millions of people to destroy the Federation.<<
>
>We could go through that one again, but it's less than a year since the
last time - so I'll just summarize, and ask "where is your evidence that
millions of people would be killed by the destruction of Star One?"
>Cally says "many, many people", which is not the same thing at all<

Yes, I've seen this discussion pop up many, many times but what's the point?
Is a death toll of 999999 people acceptable but not one of 1000001?  Sorry,
but this she-says-many-people-and-not-millions-so-it's-all-right argument
always baffles me :-).

Marian

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 16:54:50 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.com>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] models
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-1003155450-256Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

I think I've licked it!

I've been wrestling for ages trying to find the best way to protect the painted
models to protect them from the slings and arrows of outrageous post offices and
today I've finally found something the right size.

>From now on, each model will come with a free plastic food storage container! 
Cheap, robust and pretty well uncrushable.

Kelvin tells me that Travis, being nearly all black, may end up slightly cheaper
than Blake and Avon as he won't be so fiddly to paint, but we'll know when the
first one is complete (he's testing out various ways of doing him at the moment)

Judith

PS. Stock in hand of painted figures is one Blake.  There's the usual several
weeks delay on Avon, but no queue at present!
-- 
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 -  Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs,
pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth
Thomas, etc.  (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.knightwriter.org )
Redemption '01  23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 20:34:05 +0200
From: Natasa Tucev <tucev@tesla.rcub.bg.ac.yu>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Fantasy
Message-Id: <200010031834.UAA17392@Tesla.rcub.bg.ac.yu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Neil wrote:
>
>Or maybe arm wounds are just easier on make-up and pose fewer plot problems.

OK, you're obviously right. I recant this. Wounds in literature, however,
tend to be symbolic. There's the famous King Arthur's wound, or Chatterly's
paralysis, to quote a 20th century example. And whereas I agree that the
arm-wound symbolism in B7 doesn't hold water, I still maintain that the eye
injury in 'Blake' IS very telling and should be considered as a symbol.


>Also, High Fantasy is a close companion to myth, which functions to reaffirm
>the prevailing values of the status quo.  SF, as the literary branch of
>science, seeks to question such values, to test them against reality and
>where necessary debunk them.
>
I don't think an entire genre can be subversive or the opposite.

Every culture, or every society, lives by certain myths. These myths, as you
say, serve to maintain the status quo. However, all good literature
(including both SF and F) tends to be subversive, either by questioning the
validity of these mythical patterns, or by reaching for alternative
traditions, with alternative myths, in order to find a standpoint from which
the dominant culture could be observed, judged and perhaps revised.
Coetzee's Michael K, e.g., uses the myth of Mother Earth to juxtapose it to
the world of war, history and prison camps. Some writers even invent their
own mythologies, such as Blake (William) who said that 'you must either
create your own system, or be enslaved by another man's.' Not all myths
propose the same world-view nor give the same explanation of what it means
to be a person. This is why it's important to find out which archetypes
underlie a work of art, whether the ones which are in line with the general
culture, or the ones criticising it and offering an alternative.

Natasa

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 20:34:50 +0200
From: Natasa Tucev <tucev@tesla.rcub.bg.ac.yu>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Anna & the nature of love
Message-Id: <200010031834.UAA17414@Tesla.rcub.bg.ac.yu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Alison wrote:

 I'll quote some
>poetry back at you (Yeats)
>
>'Those that I kill I do not hate
>Those that I save I do not love'
>
Thanks. Speaking of Irish poetry, have you read Patrick Kavanagh's poem
called 'Kerr's Ass'? Unfortunately, there's nothing about Kerr in the poem,
it's all about his ass (I mean, donkey).

Natasa

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 20:35:17 +0200
From: Natasa Tucev <tucev@tesla.rcub.bg.ac.yu>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Anna & the nature of love
Message-Id: <200010031835.UAA17434@Tesla.rcub.bg.ac.yu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Una wrote:

>But I see your TS, and raise you a
>George, on Dorothea Casaubon:
>
>'Her finely-touched spirit had still its fine issues, thought they were not
>widely visible. Her full nature, like that river of which Cyrus broke the
>strength, spent itself in channels which had no great name on earth. But
>the effect of her being on those around her was incalculably diffusive: for
>the growing good of the world is partly dependent on unhistoric acts; and
>that things are not so ill with you and me as they might have been, is half
>owing to the number who lived faithfully a hidden life, and rest in
>unvisited tombs.'
>
>What I think I'm saying is that TS is wrong. So there, TS. <g> Dorothea
>sacrifices purity of purpose, but that does not mean that she does not do
>good, or loves.

Thank you for this lovely quote. I haven't read the book, but it doesn't
seem to me it actually contradicts Eliot. Eliot's concept of selfless love
does not necessarily imply that one has to perform a deed which will be
famous and recorded in history. When Celia dies in Africa because she
refuses to desert the ill people she's nursing, nobody is informed about
this except for the few individuals at a cocktail party. I think this is why
Eliot wrote two plays on the same topic, 'Murder in the Catherdral' about a
famous person and 'The Cocktail Party' about someone 'who lived faithfully a
hidden life, and rests in
an unvisited tomb.' Both exemplify his ideal.

Natasa

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 20:35:28 +0200
From: Natasa Tucev <tucev@tesla.rcub.bg.ac.yu>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Anna & the nature of love
Message-Id: <200010031835.UAA17439@Tesla.rcub.bg.ac.yu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Marian wrote about Blake:

>
>By his own words, he's going to Cygnus Alpha because he needs a crew, not
>because the prisoners might need his help.  Sounds a bit selfish to me :-)
>

Blake could have easily recruited his crew from REAL freedom fighters such
as Kasabi and Avalon (and Cally - why are they all women?). His conscience,
however, drives him to Cygnus Alpha. 'I need a crew' is, I think, a kind of
rational justification which he needs to give Avon. Can you imagine Avon
asking, 'Why are we going there?' and Blake replying, 'No man is an island,
entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent... And therefore
never send to know for whom the bell tolls...'

Natasa

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 20:21:02 +0100
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Anna & the nature of love
Message-ID: <02a701c02d6f$21911570$0d01a8c0@codex>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Natasa wrote:

> Marian wrote about Blake:
> >
> >By his own words, he's going to Cygnus Alpha because he needs a crew,
not
> >because the prisoners might need his help.  Sounds a bit selfish to me
:-)
>
> Blake could have easily recruited his crew from REAL freedom fighters
such
> as Kasabi and Avalon (and Cally - why are they all women?). His
conscience,
> however, drives him to Cygnus Alpha. 'I need a crew' is, I think, a kind
of
> rational justification which he needs to give Avon.

Or else he wants a crew that are deeply grateful to and dependent on him.


> Can you imagine Avon
> asking, 'Why are we going there?' and Blake replying, 'No man is an
island,

And then Avon answering, 'Except the Isle of Man.' ;)


Una

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 20:16:40 GMT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Anna & the nature of love
Message-ID: <LAW-F55EpjwGXSXCWV8000033eb@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Russ wrote:
<I can't remember that *anyone* gives Jenna the benefit of doubt in Bounty. 
Why do you think that Blake does?>

From the script ...

VILA: [Works on Blake's neckband] I wouldn't have thought it of Jenna.

BLAKE: I'm still not sure that I believe it.

AVON: What does she have to do to convince you, Blake - personally blow your 
head off?

As I said, it's cautious (fanfic to the contrary, he does *not* trust 
blindly or even very easily). Makes it easier, I guess, for him to catch on 
so quickly in the later corridor scene where she knocks away the guard's 
gun, since he was prepared to see her go either way at that point.

(PS - and another I-wish-Zen-had-Cam moment comes afterwards, when she gave 
the rest what for for giving up on her so easily ... or do you think they 
all pretended *they* were only going along with it too? <g>



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Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 16:23:27 -0400
From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Dreigroschenoper [was FW: [[B7L] Terminal and endings]
Message-ID: <200010031623_MC2-B59B-DCE@compuserve.com>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
	 charset=ISO-8859-1
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Jacqui Speel wrote:
> Try the 1931 film version of The Threepenny Opera
> - the German version is better - =


Definitely!  Lenya manages to pinch the washer-up song.

>'Blake's Seven' set in the Victorian era with no Blake -
> everybody is corrupt.

Da hat er eben leider recht,
Die Welt ist arm, der Mensch ist schlecht!

I see the chance for another round of the recasting game.  I suppose Poll=
y
and Lucy would have to be Cally and Jenna, or whichever two women are on
teleport duty this season...  and Macheath could be Avon, that bit about
him diversifying into banks sounds relevant.  On the other hand, wasn't t=
he
early draft of the character who became Tarrant a rather shady person kno=
wn
as The Captain?  So Macheath could be Tarrant.  Filch is obviously Vila,
which might just indicate that Avon is actually Jeremiah Peachum.  Mrs
Peachum schemes to catch Macheath, so is probably Servalan.  Brown is at
least a police chief, though he doesn't seem to have much else in common
with Travis.  Spelunken-Jenny...  Soolin in earlier life, plotting reveng=
e?
 I'm afraid Dayna will have to take over Lucy when Jenna leaves, the only=

other women I can remember are generic whores.

You're right, no one is Blake.  Or Gan.  And I can't quite see how to get=

in the computers, though Slave seems right for that universe somehow.

Harriet

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End of blakes7-d Digest V00 Issue #276
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