From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V00 #190 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume00/190 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 00 : Issue 190 Today's Topics: Re: [B7L] Susan Matthews novels Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?) [B7L] Re:APE Re: [B7L] Re: servalan the android Re: [B7L] Re: Torture (was B7/DS9 crossover thing) Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) Re: [B7L] Re: Other people's mail Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?) Re: [B7L] Creations Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) Re: [B7L]After the revolution Re: [B7L]After the revolution Re: [B7L] Cheeky Cockneys - not [was Re: Greco-Roman comedy] Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V00 #188 [B7L] Unsubscribing Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) [B7L] (old list-- Nova? A criminal?) [B7L] Mitigation of crimes OT: Speer (Was: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)) [B7L] Susan Matthews' novels Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?) Re: [B7L] APE Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) Re: [B7L] Which IRL society most resembles the Federation Re: [B7L] Re: B7/DS9 crossover thing Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) Re: [B7L] Susan Matthews novels Re: [B7L] B7/DS9 crossover Re: [B7L] Susan Matthews novels Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) Re: [B7L] Susan Matthews novels ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 23:14:22 +1000 From: Kathryn Andersen To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: Re: [B7L] Susan Matthews novels Message-ID: <20000704231422.B27294@welkin.apana.org.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Tue, Jul 04, 2000 at 06:41:53AM +0100, Una McCormack wrote: > Sondra wrote: > > > Judith mentioned "a wonderful SF novel by Susan Matthews" where > > the hero is a surgeon who becomes a torturer and discovers that he > > enjoys his work. > > Sondra, is this the same person who wrote 'Mind of a Man' etc? I'm not Sondra, but I will answer your question. Yes. It is the same person. I'm not so sure I would call Susan Matthews "A Prisoner of Conscience" (I think that was the first one, yes?) "wonderful". It was amazingly well written - and would give me nightmares, if I were prone to them. I really, really wish I hadn't read it. So consider carefully if you want to read them, whether you wish have memories of torture in your brain. Has anyone here read "Avalanche Soldier"? Since I know she can write well, I'd like to give it a try, but not if it is horrible. Kathryn Andersen -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Kirk: This is an extremely primitive and paranoid culture. (Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home) Stardate 8390 -- _--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen / \ | http://www.foobox.net/~kat \_.--.*/ | http://jove.prohosting.com/~rubykat v | #include "standard/disclaimer.h" ------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 08:34:37 +0100 From: "Nyder" To: , "Ellynne G." Subject: Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?) Message-ID: <002901bfe5dc$c0aa1100$35c828c3@stx.ox.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Ellynne G. To: Sent: Monday, July 03, 2000 4:54 PM Subject: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?) > > Two words: Homer Simpson. > > > Vila Restal Simpson. > > OK, this I can see. > > Does that mean Servalan Burns? > > No wonder they broke into so many power plants. Heh. Hm, is it possible to take the analogy further? Lisa as Jenna, Marge as Cally, perhaps; Tarrant as Bart... Maggie as Soolin? Avon as Krusty? Nah. Sorry, for a minute there I flashed on "Gambit" as a Simpsons episode, with Moe behind the bar.... Fiona Fiona Moore http://redrival.com/nyder/indexx.html Resist the Host or your Oneness will be Absorbed ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 19:40:53 +0100 From: Steve Rogerson To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re:APE Message-ID: <39622FB4.7E7FB7A8@mcr1.poptel.org.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I also had no luck getting hold of this. I even tried the ICA bookshop in London, which was one of the places recommended, but I drew a blank. -- cheers Steve Rogerson http://homepages.poptel.org.uk/steve.rogerson Redemption: The Blake's 7 and Babylon 5 convention 23-25 February 2001, Ashford, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 18:31:08 +0100 From: "Deborah Day" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: servalan the android Message-ID: <01ea01bfe5dd$a6183280$7096bc3e@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Debbie Day said >>What if Servalan was an android, sent out by the things from the Darkling >Zone? >Eldritch outer spheres with shadowy purposes? - I like it. >But remember Servalan saved the human race. And furthermore, she had to be >who she was (and Blake had to be who he was) in order for the two of them >together to save the human race. . But maybe these were the wrong sort of aliens (sounds like British Rail) and she had to save the galaxy from them, as the darkling zone things didn't like humanoids, if I remember correctly. Perhaps the amorphous alien invaders would have been a greater threat to the other aliens than the human race. And I wasn't suggesting a toddler android, merely that Servalan was originally a real person, and was spotted somehow as having potential and was removed and replaced by a robot controlled to some extent by the aliens. Debbie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 08:38:32 +0100 From: "Nyder" To: , "Ika" Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Torture (was B7/DS9 crossover thing) Message-ID: <002b01bfe5dc$c23ce600$35c828c3@stx.ox.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Ika To: Sent: Monday, July 03, 2000 1:32 PM Subject: [B7L] Re: Torture (was B7/DS9 crossover thing) > I think we're certainly meant to get chills when Avon kills Shrinker, and to > see his treatment of Shrinker (threats to get information) as a form of torture > in itself - though you're right, it's not as extreme as Shrinker's laser-probe > thing, and that makes it a bit less dark/complex than it could have been. I think it's *more* so, myself-- if you think about it, what Avon's doing is much more subtle and therefore more nasty. It's just less in your face, if I can use the expression. Fiona Fiona Moore http://redrival.com/nyder/indexx.html Resist the Host or your Oneness will be Absorbed ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 08:55:30 +0100 From: "Nyder" To: "Kathryn Andersen" , "Blake's 7 list" Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) Message-ID: <002d01bfe5dc$c39bd9c0$35c828c3@stx.ox.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Kathryn Andersen To: Blake's 7 list Sent: Monday, July 03, 2000 10:42 AM Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) > On Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 09:36:50PM +0100, Nyder wrote: > > > > Oh, and to Una's example of the dreamheads who died when Blake blew up their > > Shadow supply, I'd add the inhabitants of a number of planets whose weather > > system was controlled by Star One. > > Well, to pick a nit, that was caused by the Andromedans. IMHO, I > don't think just destroying Star One would have caused as much chaos > as what actually happened - I think the Andromedans were deliberately > making the systems go nutzy. OK, nit picked-- but remember, Blake was actively out to destroy Star One-- which would have, by your statement, caused much more chaos... Fiona Fiona Moore http://redrival.com/nyder/indexx.html Resist the Host or your Oneness will be Absorbed ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 14:43:59 -0400 From: "Christine+Steve" To: "B7 Mailing List" Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) Message-ID: <006401bfe5e7$e42e2a20$3e099ad8@cgorman> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kathryn added to a previous post > > Well, to pick a nit, that was caused by the Andromedans. IMHO, I > > don't think just destroying Star One would have caused as much chaos > > as what actually happened - I think the Andromedans were deliberately > > making the systems go nutzy. > Fiona replied > OK, nit picked-- but remember, Blake was actively out to destroy Star One-- > which would have, by your statement, caused much more chaos... > So does the ends justify the means? Would the deaths caused by the destruction of Star One be less that the total deaths caused by the Federation during its total lifetime? Probably, but still huge in number, and I could never get my head around Blake coming up and going through with this plan. Blake knew a large number of Federation citizens settled on frontier worlds - even his brother and sister - and a lot of these planets would have depended on Star One. Especially early in their development. Maybe the amount of brainwashing treatment Blake endured did more damage and his feelings for revenge clouded everything else. Steve Dobson. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 08:36:41 +0100 From: "Nyder" To: "Harriet Monkhouse" <101637.2064@compuserve.com>, Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Other people's mail Message-ID: <002a01bfe5dc$c1737b80$35c828c3@stx.ox.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> To: Sent: Monday, July 03, 2000 1:53 AM Subject: [B7L] Re: Other people's mail > Ellynne wrote: > >I know the same thing happened as a kid in school > >when they asked us which of a bunch of historical > >characters we identified with and I couldn't come up > >with an answer - admired and would like (in some areas) > > to be more like, yes, I could say that. But _identify_ with? > > That seemed to be saying a bit much. I went through the > >quick list of everyone I could think of since the dawn of > >time and couldn't find one. > > Nobody ever asked me, but I wanted to be Hephaistion, son of Amyntor. > Though that might not be the same thing as identifying. I always sort of identified with Erasmus of Rotterdam-- in the same way as one identifies with a character in a novel, really, he sounds like the sort of person one could really have gotten on well with. Right, where's the off-topic list? Fiona Fiona Moore http://redrival.com/nyder/indexx.html Resist the Host or your Oneness will be Absorbed ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 23:49:42 +0100 From: "Nyder" To: "Una McCormack" , "B7 List" Subject: Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?) Message-ID: <002701bfe5dc$bef5aa40$35c828c3@stx.ox.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Una McCormack To: B7 List Sent: Monday, July 03, 2000 2:29 PM Subject: Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?) > Mistral wrote: > > > Una wrote: > > > > > > > And how many of those had 'Animals' in the subject line? > > > > > > > > Of the ones in June 2000, 150 (15 of which were sent by people with > > > > "Una" in their name). Of the ones in February 1998, none had "Animals" > > > > in the subject line. > > > > > > I feel validated as a human being. > > > > Are you sure you don't mean 'validated as an Animal'? > > It's a fine line early in the morning, Mistral, but by this time in the > afternoon, I can usually be described as human rather than animal. Ah, but a savage thinking human, I'm sure. Fiona Fiona Moore http://redrival.com/nyder/indexx.html Resist the Host or your Oneness will be Absorbed ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 08:29:48 +0100 From: "Nyder" To: "Sally Manton" , Subject: Re: [B7L] Creations Message-ID: <002801bfe5dc$bfae4be0$35c828c3@stx.ox.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Una wrote: > editor on B7. I'd argue that the show would have been *completely* different > if he'd accepted, rather than suggesting Boucher to Maloney.> Sally: > Well for one thing Blake and Avon would probably have been sent to separate > parts of the *galaxy* in episode three and *kept* there. Holmes could write > both of them very well, and they both have beautiful interaction with other > characters, but he seemed to *hate* the relationship and kept them firmly > apart. His Avon-Vila stuff is very very good, of course. True-- it may be cos Avon-Vila is closer to the "Holmsian" double act than Avon-Blake. The classic Holmsian double act seems to usually involve characters of quite different social status and ability, with one usually being quite serious/intelligent and one being more comedic/intuitive. Egs: Garron/Unstoffe, Litefoot/Jago, Glitz/Dibber. Avon and Blake have a more uneasy (and, at the risk of annoying all the Vila fans, IMO more complex) relationship. > And for another thing, the wimp-the-women tendency would have become a full > flood. In both Killer and Gambit, Jenna and Cally are at their weakest > (Jenna's bimbette turn in Killer is glaring). He doesn't seem able to write for women, does he? Mind you, Nation's guilty of that too. Though Servalan is a nice scheming bitch in Gambit. Fiona Fiona Moore http://redrival.com/nyder/indexx.html Resist the Host or your Oneness will be Absorbed ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 14:50:21 -0400 From: "Christine+Steve" To: "B7 Mailing List" Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) Message-ID: <006901bfe5e8$c91da5c0$3e099ad8@cgorman> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kathryn Andersen wrote: > I would think so. I'd also expect that a number of the non-Federation > worlds would be very religious by contrast, having been colinized by > those fleeing religious persecution. We see religion in action on Cygnus Alpha - although the do force their disciples to stay on the planet. Actually, its strange why no-one from the Federation bothered to check up on the prisoners on Cygnus Alpha. Given more time and access to a spaceship, Vargas would have been pretty powerful and quite a good adversary for the Federation. He may have even been useful to Blake after a while - like the Terra Nostra. Its a similar idea to "And the Children Shall Lead" from the original Star Trek. Steve Dobson. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 09:09:48 +0100 From: "Nyder" To: "Lysator" , "Murray" Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) Message-ID: <002f01bfe5dc$c59b0520$35c828c3@stx.ox.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Murray To: Lysator Sent: Monday, July 03, 2000 6:44 PM Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) > You missed one fundamental difference between the Terran Federation and the > Roman and British Empires: their attitudes towards religion. The Romans > allowed a wide degree of religious toleration, only intervegning if a > religion had features that they regarded as particularly objectionable, > such as human sacrifice. The British consciously followed the Romans, only > interfering in cases like sutee (the burning of widows). Mildly debatable-- the British, remember, had an active policy of encouraging missionary activity, and doing things like, erm, making alterations to Hindu religious erotic art and making Polynesian women wear blouses, etc. The last paragraph of "Allan Quatermain," in which the hero, who has married an African tribal queen (white, naturally) remarks that much as he loves his wife and her people, he would deeply love to see a cross on top of the local temple rather than a Pagan sun-worship symbol before he dies-- which seems to sum up the Victorian attitude to religion; tolerate the local faith, but encourage them to convert. > There is another example of Federation rule in 'Horizon', where it rules > via the planet's hereditary monarch, Ro. What we see reminds me of the > Roman client kings or of the princely states in India under the Raj. Probably the best example of Federation imperial policy, IMO. Fiona Fiona Moore http://redrival.com/nyder/indexx.html Resist the Host or your Oneness will be Absorbed ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 08:54:39 +0100 From: "Nyder" To: "Sally Manton" , Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) Message-ID: <002c01bfe5dc$c2d3f5e0$35c828c3@stx.ox.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Sally Manton To: Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2000 10:34 PM Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) > non-unhappy. IMHO Carnell and the soldiers come under my heading of > functionaries of the power structure (and willing instruments of > oppression), and, since Marryatt seems to be in the employ of Servalan, I'd > put him there as well I'm inclined to disagree with you slightly; for one thing, what we know about Carnell suggests he's more in the way of a freelance engaged for the occasion rather than an out-and-out functionary. My definition of someone who is a functionary of the power structure would be someone like Joban, or Samor; people who are conscious and willing agents of oppression. Simply being employed by the regime, IMO, doesn't make one its willing instrument; modern soldiers and policemen (not to mention NHS doctors), by that logic, would be the willing instruments of the Blair government-- whereas in fact some of them may not like said government much if they think about it at all, and many joined up not out of a willingness to serve government/Queen/country etc. but because it was a decent job. Maryatt... you're right, debatable (we can't exactly ask him) but remember, the man was a doctor-- who presumably has to help anyone regardless of who they are or what they believe. > I'd accept that some of these (and presumably a relative handful of others > we don't see) are - as I said - passively non-unhappy, and enough so to > accept Federation rule as something that can be lived with (as long as one > shuts one's eyes firmly to what is happening to others :-)). See Terry Gilliam's excellent film *Brazil,* which revolves around a man in a fascist state who is aware of the executions, torture etc. going on behind the scenes but maintains a happy existence by keeping his eyes shut and his head down-- until he suddenly finds himself forced to actively confront the truth about the system. One vaguely sinister point I've always seen in that film is the question of whether he was better off before or after.... Fiona Fiona Moore http://redrival.com/nyder/indexx.html Resist the Host or your Oneness will be Absorbed ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 09:04:57 +0100 From: "Nyder" To: "Una McCormack" , "Lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) Message-ID: <002e01bfe5dc$c44cda40$35c828c3@stx.ox.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Una McCormack To: Lysator Sent: Monday, July 03, 2000 6:16 PM Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) > Two things to answer there, I think. One, no - I wasn't arguing that *types* > of society are inherently good or evil OK-- I see, as you say we were arguing the same thing but with a little terminology difference. I tend to see the term "social structure" as referring to particular types of societies-- monarchy, democracy, tyranny, etc-- which individual societies pick up and run with. > > I'll contend that it might have made something of itself if its > > leader hadn't been stark raving mad. > > Can an individual have a noticeable impact on history? In Hitler's case one > would instantly say, 'yes', but the interesting thing about the example is > the extent to which the bulk of that society happily threw itself behind a > leader who was stark raving mad. But remember, what was the alternative? There's a lovely line in the play "Speer," to the effect that "ten million Germans didn't vote for Hitler because he was evil, but because they thought he could make something of the country." Again, you have a country in howling chaos and with both economic and political systems in collapse, and along comes this bloke with what seems like a coherent and workable plan to restore order-- it's only later that you start to ask questions. > > Even Nazi Germany produced Leni > > Riefenstahl and Albert Speer, > > Both of whom I'd use as contrary examples : people whose talents and > intellects were corrupted by the political system in which they operated. And yet they operated within it, and even prospered. "Triumph of the Will" couldn't have been made without there being a Nazi Party to film. > > (the way it did it is unforgivable, as I'd be the first to say-- but > wasn't > > Imperial Rome also aimed at world domination and built on slave labour?). > > I don't know anything about Roman political ideology and justifications for > expansion, but what troubles me most about the Nazi example is the way in > which racial/nationalist ideology was pivotal, and the ruthlessness and > success with which it was enacted. This is true, and certainly they were rather more, erm, proactive than the Romans were (I don't know much about it but as far as I can tell the Romans didn't regard any particular race or group of races as subhuman; though they certainly regarded some groups as pig-ignorant barbarians, they don't seem to have regarded this as incurable). I agree that the Nazi society was evil at the core-- I'm just debating the point, to argue that a slaveowning, imperialist society doesn't necessarily *have* to be. Fiona Fiona Moore http://redrival.com/nyder/indexx.html Resist the Host or your Oneness will be Absorbed ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 20:30:03 +0100 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution Message-ID: <01ed01bfe5ef$93c0e520$e535fea9@neilfaulkner> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Alison Page > There seems to be a bit of a consensus on the list that as Andrew says: > > > the "Lower Grades" have nothing material to gain by change > > As a member of the Lower Grades I'd just like to say that this is manifestly > not the case. It's more complex than that. There's a difference between changes within the system (reform), and changing the system altogether (revolution), and the differences between you and your grandmother are the result of the former rather than the latter (as well as technological progress which has impacted on society as a whole). What matters, I think, is the *potential* for change within the system. The UK has a lot of potential for such change, being a liberal democracy with a loose class structure and a healthy economy. If there's little or no potential for change, reform is out of the question, and revolution becomes the only meaningful means of actualising meaningful change (he said meaningfully). At that point the 'lower grades' have to balance the potential benefits and losses of revolting, and since people are by nature largely conservative, they tend to hang onto what they've got rather than risk throwing it all away in a revolution which might - but might not - improve their lot. The government has to become pretty damn well intolerable before they take that risk. (The Tupamaros of Venezuela tried to exploit that by goading the government into ever greater depths of oppression, reasoning that eventually the people would have had enough and rise up against the government. What actually happened was that the people got pretty pissed off with the Tupamaros. Revolutionaries can be every bit as patronising towards the masses as any self-appointed ruling elite.) Neil ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 20:36:01 +0100 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution Message-ID: <01ee01bfe5ef$952900a0$e535fea9@neilfaulkner> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Hellen Paskaleva > I do not think this is Blake's job - to "put" or remove governing bodies. > The very idea of the change is to let the planets and their people to make > *their* choice who will rule them. IMO. And those supporting Blake would point to the planets where it all worked out all right, and those against him would point to those where it all went horribly wrong. Neil ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 20:11:22 +0100 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Cheeky Cockneys - not [was Re: Greco-Roman comedy] Message-ID: <01ec01bfe5ef$92d5e8e0$e535fea9@neilfaulkner> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> > Neil identified as a Cheeky Cockney: > >George Formby, a very definite contender. > > Come off it, he's the Emperor of Lankysheer. Nevertheless a good example of the type. Cheeky Cockneys don't have to be cockney, or indeed cheeky for that matter. Neil ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 20:42:18 +0100 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) Message-ID: <01fa01bfe5f0$ff917de0$e535fea9@neilfaulkner> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Christine+Steve > Fiona replied > > OK, nit picked-- but remember, Blake was actively out to destroy Star > One-- > > which would have, by your statement, caused much more chaos... > > So does the ends justify the means? Would the deaths caused by the > destruction of Star One be less that the total deaths caused by the > Federation during its total lifetime? Oh ghod, I don't think I can face this one again. It's only six months since last time... Neil ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 20:22:25 +0100 From: "Nyder" To: "Una McCormack" , Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V00 #188 Message-ID: <010d01bfe5ed$bd55f440$35c828c3@stx.ox.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Una McCormack To: Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2000 6:32 AM Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V00 #188 > Pat wrote: > > > From: "Nyder" > > > > >Oh, and to Una's example of the dreamheads who died when Blake blew up > their > > >Shadow supply, I'd add the inhabitants of a number of planets whose > weather > > >system was controlled by Star One. > > > > I realise that I should be quoting Una's example myself, but I can't find > it > > anywhere(!) > > I don't actually remember giving this example, but I just assumed my memory > was faulty. Maybe I didn't after all. > Maybe you didn't. I've been misquoted here myself (for the record, I never said a thing about the moondisks) Fiona Fiona Moore http://redrival.com/nyder/indexx.html Resist the Host or your Oneness will be Absorbed ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 19:33:51 +0100 From: "Ariana" To: "b7" Subject: [B7L] Unsubscribing Message-ID: <01ac01bfe5f4$4ed62060$b4e407c3@ariana> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit No, I'm not asking how to do it! :) (I actually kept the message I got when I joined -- incredible, innit?) I'm off on holiday and as I will be piggy-backing my father's Internet account with a 14,4 modem, I can't really afford to receive 100-odd messages a day. So I am leaving you all for the time being; I'll keep an eye on the archives in case anything interesting turns up. In the meantime, my R&H/B7 crossover is available by e-mail (assuming anyone is particularly interested). Perhaps some day the Beeb will resume its repeats and give me more material for reviews and stories. They're my only chance of making some worthwhile contributions around here... Righto, Ariana http://www.alpha.ndirect.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 19:08:15 +0200 From: Julia Jones To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Cc: Lysator List Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) Message-ID: In message , Iain Coleman writes >I have a simple and elegant solution to the problem of climate change, but >unfortunately the margin of this post is to small to contain it. *Bad* Iain. So how many pages of printout did it take in the end? -- Julia Jones "Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!" The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 12:43:25 -0700 From: Helen Krummenacker To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] (old list-- Nova? A criminal?) Message-ID: <39623E5C.33CC@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > What did Nova do to get deported? Step on the President's > > hamster? Found myself thinking about this... He's a con artist. One who, like Vila, seems to have some natural resistance to being tinkered witih to fit into society. That squeaky clean image, fresh face and niave expression all help him lure rich ALpha's into investing money in his start-up businesses... which never materialize, he disappears and resurfaces a few weeks later with a different name, etc. His 'honest face' is EXACTLY what makes him so effective. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 13:05:30 -0700 From: Helen Krummenacker To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Mitigation of crimes Message-ID: <3962438A.2295@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To add to Gan's defense... I get the impression he killed the man who killed his woman almost immediately after her death (thus hot blood) also, his use of bare hands for his revenge points to a lack of premeditation. > > Avon - Hey, every theory has it's exceptions. Actually, his reason for stealing was a desire for freedom. He didn't believe he could change the system, but he wanted to try to beat it. If he had enough money, he (and Anna) couldn't be victimized. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 22:02:19 +0100 From: "Una McCormack" To: "Lysator" Subject: OT: Speer (Was: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)) Message-ID: <042201bfe5fb$274d69c0$0d01a8c0@codex> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Fiona/me: > > > I'll contend that it might have made something of itself if its > > > leader hadn't been stark raving mad. > > > > Can an individual have a noticeable impact on history? In Hitler's case one > > would instantly say, 'yes', but the interesting thing about the example is > > the extent to which the bulk of that society happily threw itself behind a > > leader who was stark raving mad. > > But remember, what was the alternative? There's a lovely line in the play > "Speer," to the effect that "ten million Germans didn't vote for Hitler > because he was evil, but because they thought he could make something of the > country." Heh - I was going to use that line in the other thread about how you persuade people to accept the status quo. Speer says, '[E]ighty million people were *not* persuaded to follow Hitler because they knew he was going to murder people in lime ditches and gas chambers; they did not follow him because he seemed evil, but because he seemed extraordinarily good.' What was the alternative... Well, ObB7, and to quote the Great God Boucher - 'There's always a choice, Deva...' > Again, you have a country in howling chaos and with both economic > and political systems in collapse, and along comes this bloke with what > seems like a coherent and workable plan to restore order-- it's only later > that you start to ask questions. In Speer's case, you unfortunately start asking those questions round about the time when the country's back in howling chaos and with both economic and political systems in collapse - mostly as a result of the plans of the bloke at the top. > > > Even Nazi Germany produced Leni Riefenstahl and Albert Speer, > > > > Both of whom I'd use as contrary examples : people whose talents and > > intellects were corrupted by the political system in which they operated. > > And yet they operated within it, and even prospered. "Triumph of the Will" > couldn't have been made without there being a Nazi Party to film. I don't know what happened to Leni Riefenstahl, but you could argue, in Speer's case, that being banged up for twenty years for war crimes wasn't exactly prospering. But then Speer seemed to think he'd done OK by the end of his life. This has got to be totally off-topic now! Una ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 17:10:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Sondra Sweigman To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Susan Matthews' novels Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Actually, An Exchange of Hostages is the first novel, but Kathryn makes a valid point about being left with memories of torture. As someone who's worked with Amnesty International and had friends tortured, I already had such memories, but if you don't and don't want to... Sondra ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 14:12:35 PDT From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?) Message-ID: <20000704211235.48088.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Fiona wrote: No, Tarrant as one of the Flanders kids would be far more fun (and Gan as the other.) Avon as Sideshow Bob. *Anyone* as Sideshow Bob (I adore Sideshow Bob.) ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 22:20:10 +0100 From: "Una McCormack" To: "Harriet Monkhouse" <101637.2064@compuserve.com>, "Blake's 7 (Lysator)" Subject: Re: [B7L] APE Message-ID: <046401bfe5fd$a6533220$0d01a8c0@codex> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Harriet: > In June, we were told about a publication called APE which included a B7 > graphic story by Loulou Harris and might be available via WHSmith. Smith > and other places I tried looked blank, and the notice did say something > about getting copies by mail order when the retailers started returning > them. Are there any more details on this? No, I've not had any success either. Their website is: http://www.apemag.demon.co.uk/home.htm, and there is an email address for people who want issues. Una ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 14:19:24 PDT From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) Message-ID: <20000704211924.43425.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Steve wrote: And Neil moaned: True. Even *I'm* argued out for a while. To the archives, people (April last year was a *big* month for this question - I know the date, 'cause I ended up writing my posts into an essay for Judith.) ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 21:27:19 +0100 From: "Nyder" To: "Andrew Ellis" , Subject: Re: [B7L] Which IRL society most resembles the Federation Message-ID: <000201bfe603$17769140$c91086d4@stx.ox.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Andrew Ellis To: Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2000 10:32 PM Subject: [B7L] Which IRL society most resembles the Federation > > century. It covertly supports organised crime like (.......). ....late 20th-Century Japan, 19th-Century Italy... Fiona Fiona Moore http://redrival.com/nyder/indexx.html Resist the Host or your Oneness will be Absorbed ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 21:20:59 +0100 From: "Una McCormack" To: "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: B7/DS9 crossover thing Message-ID: <041501bfe5f8$8a7d2290$0d01a8c0@codex> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alison wrote: > I'm thinking of agencies that have brain power but very little physical > force, and so manipulate human beings into doing the hard work That's me! Keep it quiet, can't you? Una ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 21:21:48 +0100 From: "Una McCormack" To: "Lysator List" Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) Message-ID: <041701bfe5f8$8b74a1f0$0d01a8c0@codex> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Iain wrote: > On Mon, 3 Jul 2000, Judith Proctor wrote: > > > given how difficult climate control is in reality - anyone out there know an > > easy way of halting global warming? > > I have a simple and elegant solution to the problem of climate change, but > unfortunately the margin of this post is to small to contain it. It's OK, we'll have worked it out in a couple of centuries or so. Una ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 08:44:15 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: Re: [B7L] Susan Matthews novels Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Tue 04 Jul, Una McCormack wrote: > Sondra wrote: > > > Judith mentioned "a wonderful SF novel by Susan Matthews" where > > the hero is a surgeon who becomes a torturer and discovers that he > > enjoys his work. > > Sondra, is this the same person who wrote 'Mind of a Man' etc? Yes. She was very good as a fan writer - she's even better several years down the line as a professional. Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.knightwriter.org ) Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 21:21:11 +0100 From: "Una McCormack" To: "Lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] B7/DS9 crossover Message-ID: <041601bfe5f8$8b2e7130$0d01a8c0@codex> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Murray, > >Does it have Garak? > > Indeed it does. Here is a sample from page 18: > > "Vila. What a nice surprise." > Servalan had rarely sounded so insincere. Quark looked up and > licked his lips. "Beautiful woman. Beautiful dress." > "One of my first," said Garak from behind them. "Madame Servalan > does it more than justice." > Vila tried to conceal a shudder as he studied the newcomer. Grey > skin, thick cord-like ridges circling his eyes, running down his neck. A > lizard, or an insect. Dark eyes and a smile as insincere as Servalan's. Heh - sounds right up my street! Thanks for the tip, Murray. Una ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 21:07:10 +0100 From: "Una McCormack" To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: Re: [B7L] Susan Matthews novels Message-ID: <041301bfe5f8$89cee130$0d01a8c0@codex> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kathryn wrote: > On Tue, Jul 04, 2000 at 06:41:53AM +0100, Una McCormack wrote: > > is this the same person who wrote 'Mind of a Man' etc? > > Yes. It is the same person. Thanks, Kathryn. > I'm not so sure I would call Susan Matthews "A Prisoner of Conscience" > (I think that was the first one, yes?) "wonderful". It was amazingly > well written - and would give me nightmares, if I were prone to them. > I really, really wish I hadn't read it. So consider carefully if you > want to read them, whether you wish have memories of torture in your > brain. I picked up 'An Exchange of Hostages', which I think is the first one, earlier today - and got your warning this evening Una ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 21:03:13 +0100 From: "Una McCormack" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) Message-ID: <041201bfe5f8$894e8da0$0d01a8c0@codex> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Neil: > From: Christine+Steve > > Fiona replied > > > OK, nit picked-- but remember, Blake was actively out to destroy Star > > One-- > > > which would have, by your statement, caused much more chaos... > > > > So does the ends justify the means? Would the deaths caused by the > > destruction of Star One be less that the total deaths caused by the > > Federation during its total lifetime? > > Oh ghod, I don't think I can face this one again. It's only six months > since last time... Lightweight. Why don't you cast it in terms of damage to the penguin populations of known space? Una ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 22:25:05 +0200 From: Julia Jones To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Cc: b7 Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) Message-ID: <6DJUzOChgkY5Ewb8@jajones.demon.co.uk> In message <01fa01bfe5f0$ff917de0$e535fea9@neilfaulkner>, Neil Faulkner writes >From: Christine+Steve >> Fiona replied >> > OK, nit picked-- but remember, Blake was actively out to destroy Star >> One-- >> > which would have, by your statement, caused much more chaos... >> >> So does the ends justify the means? Would the deaths caused by the >> destruction of Star One be less that the total deaths caused by the >> Federation during its total lifetime? > >Oh ghod, I don't think I can face this one again. It's only six months >since last time... > Neither can I... Someone who isn't living in a hotel room please go through the archives and point people in the direction of the digests covering that thread. -- Julia Jones "Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!" The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 22:19:03 +0200 From: Julia Jones To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Cc: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: Re: [B7L] Susan Matthews novels Message-ID: In message <20000704231422.B27294@welkin.apana.org.au>, Kathryn Andersen writes >I'm not so sure I would call Susan Matthews "A Prisoner of Conscience" >(I think that was the first one, yes?) "wonderful". It was amazingly >well written - and would give me nightmares, if I were prone to them. >I really, really wish I hadn't read it. So consider carefully if you >want to read them, whether you wish have memories of torture in your >brain. I partly agree with Kathryn. Only partly, because I do think it's a wonderful book. It's also deeply disturbing, and it might very well give people nightmares. I read the sequel a couple of days before the Nato force started finding the mass graves in Kosovo. Those who have read the sequel will know how disturbing that was - it was impossible to tell myself "This wouldn't really happen", because a few days later I was watching the evidence on the news. -- Julia Jones "Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!" The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon. -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V00 Issue #190 **************************************