From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V00 #19 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume00/19 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 00 : Issue 19 Today's Topics: Re [B7L] How to be Topp on the Liberatar [B7L] Avon & Friends Re: Re [B7L] How to be Topp on the Liberatar Re: [B7L] Avon's friends (was Many, mant people) How many threads has this sp... Re: [B7L] Avon & Friends Re: [B7L] Mental health & Governments [B7L] Re: Killer Re: Re [B7L] How to be Topp on the Liberatar [B7L] Computer animated piccies Re: [B7L] Avon & Friends Re: [B7L] Avon's friends (was Many, mant people) How many threads has this sp.. Re: [B7L] Avon & Friends [B7L] Fab Cafe on January 29 [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V00 #18 [B7L] Mental health & Governments [B7L] models for sale [B7L] Robot Wars [B7L] orac defeated [B7L] Avon's friends [B7L] Avon's friends Re: [B7L] Robot Wars [B7L] models for sale Re: Re [B7L] How to be Topp on the Liberatar Re: [B7L] Robot Wars Re: [B7L] Mental health & Governments Re: [B7L] Mental health & Governments Re: [B7L] Avon & Friends Re: [B7L] Mental health & Governments Re: [B7L] Mental health & Governments Re: [B7L] Mental health & Governments Re: [B7L] Mental health & Governments Re: [B7L] Re: Killer [B7L] models for sale Re: [B7L] Avon & Friends Re: [B7L] Mental health & Governments ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 20:38:30 PST From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re [B7L] How to be Topp on the Liberatar Message-ID: <20000121043830.27080.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Oh...my... Should have come with a 'do not read when eating, drinking, in public or before heading to a *very* serious meeting' warning...it put me in a giggly mood all morning. This was absolutely hysterical. Neil, a million and three thanks... ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 20:52:54 PST From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Avon & Friends Message-ID: <20000121045254.27791.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed After I wrote: Ellyne answered: Oh, I do, I do...but (coming down from the decidedly cloudy clouds) how would you cope in Gan's shoes (besides in danger of tripping over them). Being treated the way Avon treats him? You'd would have to be somewhat more of a saint than - well, a saint - to not feel mildly murderous a lot of the time (the limiter notwithstanding) rising to strongly homicidally hostile on Avon's good days. Me, I may *love* him, but I don't think he'd be any nicer to me than he is to Gan (possibly less the sixth time I blew Orac up by accident). And the one time he *got* to thump Avon, he was out of his head and probably couldn't recall it later.... ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 00:14:57 EST From: Pherber@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: Re [B7L] How to be Topp on the Liberatar Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/20/00 12:33:29 PM Mountain Standard Time, N.Faulkner@tesco.net writes: << THE DANGERUS MISSHUN >> ROFLMAO! Neil, you are one *strange* puppy... Nina ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 00:14:58 EST From: Pherber@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon's friends (was Many, mant people) How many threads has this sp... Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/20/00 4:39:53 AM Mountain Standard Time, kat@welkin.apana.org.au writes: << Rebel Recruit Mary-Sue: Avon, I really like you. Avon (dryly): Isn't that nice. >> Wanna start a pool as to how much longer she survives? I'd give her 3 days, tops. Nina ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 19:38:35 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon & Friends Message-ID: <3887D4BA.F2F67C1C@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sally Manton wrote: > would even those of us who love Avon really > want to *live* with him???) Hmm. Which crew member(s) would *you* find easiest to live with? I do believe you're going to have to start writing 'most' of us--I find Avon quite restful; and I'm quite certain I'm not the only person here. If you told me I had to share digs with a crew member, he'd be by far easiest for me to put up with (I prefer to live alone)-- followed by Jenna and Soolin. Vila and Dayna only in a *real pinch*. Any of the others, and I'd be at the doctor asking for anti-anxiety drugs (and maybe so with Vila and Dayna). I could probably be happy with any of them as next-door neighbours; unless Vila was constantly throwing wild parties (and not inviting me?) Mistral -- "Who do you serve? And who do you trust?" --Galen, 'Crusade' ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 07:59:12 -0000 From: "Alison Page" To: "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Mental health & Governments Message-ID: <001201bf63e5$8286dbc0$ca8edec2@pre-installedco> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lisa said - >In the interests of accuracy, I suggest you check the date on the Canadian >example Alison cited. The reference she gave had a publication date of >1967; the actual case might have been even older. What the current >situation is I don't know, but you can't draw too many conclusions about >present-day practice from something that happened over 30 years ago, >especially given the significant advances in the mental health field over >that period. Precisely. My point wasn't to compare the past of the Soviet Union with the present in the West, but to show that both sides in the Cold War practised extreme methods to deal with those who were 'different' for whatever reason. And something about the brutalising effects of power. People might be interested in the context in which I uncovered the quote I mentioned because it is relevant to B7 (honest). I was or am trying to write a 'Manchurian candidate' style novel about a brainwashed assassin, therefore I have been researching theories on brainwashing practices, and the extent to which they have been effective. One pleasant thing about fiction research (as opposed to academic) is that one is trying to uncover the plausible not the cast-iron true. However because of the references, and the wider context, I am pretty sure that that particular bit of information about what went on in that hospital is true. It was fairly mainstream at the time. The wider context was that some people think this particular psychiatric practice was funded by certain parties as a front for brainwashing research. This wider context I can't vouch for, I just note it as interesting for a story. I have no way to judge if it happened. Now, tying my 'brainwashing' research in with Blake (and Avon in RoD) I think a couple of things are interesting: - Torture and brainwashing don't really work very well, and they never have. It is easy to break and hurt the human mind, but harder to manipulate it in the way you want by brute force - Torture is supposed to lead to 'truth' but it merely scares people into generating elaborate fantasies or to saying back to you what you want to hear (torture does however work as a means of frightening a civilian population) - Brainwashing is supposed to lead to 'control' but it is more likely to lead to catatonia, hysteria, and faking (people can fake very well when the alternative is 'back in the isolation tank') - Same thing goes for hypnosis - faking is most common, and desire to please - The best method of all (as far as I can tell) is to put people into horrible conditions and then 'rescue' them and then exploit their gratitude I'd still write a story with brainwashing in it, but I think the idea of control is nothing more than a macho fantasy - to do away with the hit-and-miss of propaganda and persuasion, and to turn people by brute force into controlled machines. You can see the appeal to secret services. I'd go so far as to say that what was done to Blake (or Dayna) can't be done, no matter how sophisticated technology gets, because the human mind is both too strong and too delicate. It just breaks, before you can do anything useful to it. The rest is victims faking it because they are scared, and I don't blame them. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:18:33 -0000 From: Godrich Stephen To: "'blakes7@lysator.liu.se'" Subject: [B7L] Re: Killer Message-ID: <8FA6C9AA73AAD211BCEE00A0C9D9E5750238507A@WWMESSM7> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >Susie Wright wrote: >>As I was reading about "Killer" a thought struck me.... it aired in 1979 >>and dealt with a plague. Was England aware of AIDS yet? >Too early. The first case of AIDS in the US wasn't identified until 1981, >and while others quickly followed, it wasn't recognized as infectious until >late 1982, nor was the scope of the epidemic clear in the early days. (I >believe the HIV virus was isolated in 1983.) I don't have information on >when the disease first appeared in the UK, but there certainly wasn't any >awareness of an infectious "plague" as early as 1979. >- Lisa >-- Oooh, preminition. I could also be that rumours were flying around the scientific community around 1979 about AIDS (or GRIDS as it was known before the PC police got hold of it). The writer got inspiration to write about a virus which there was no known cure. Could all just be coincidence though :) just my tuppence worth. Steve ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 10:27:50 -0000 From: "Una McCormack" To: "b7" Subject: Re: Re [B7L] How to be Topp on the Liberatar Message-ID: <026201bf63fa$70db3050$0d01a8c0@hedge> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Neil: > BLAKE: Right crew lissen carefully put away your gurly magazeen Vila and > Jenna stop panting yor nales. We hav to steal Top Sekrit Federashun Weapon > from base on this planet so we teleport to here, march through swamp > infested with fire-breathing alein crocodiles swim across lava field cut > through elektrified fence give sossages to feroshus guard dogs ... My favourite bit. > "The only good alein is a dead alein" - Ursula Leguiun And this as well. Your genius leaves me nearly speechless. Una ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 10:37:41 -0000 From: "Una McCormack" To: "lysator" Subject: [B7L] Computer animated piccies Message-ID: <027601bf63fb$bc5436c0$0d01a8c0@hedge> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I just had this site brought to my attention: http://members.tripod.co.uk/aDziE/album.html which is a number of computer generated images of the Liberator in a variety of scenes. I think it's rather fab. Una ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 03:55:18 PST From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon & Friends Message-ID: <20000121115518.88955.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed After I wrote: Mistral chided: Actually, what I thought I'd get was at least a few "yes!!!" answers to the question (possibly with capitals and/or bouncing ). It was a question, after all, not a statement... I guess it might depend - okay, okay, for some of us, let us be pedantic at all costs :-) - on how we think *he* would take to *us* as well as vice versa. And given his intolerance of (and sometimes contempt for) those he does live with, and his casual verbal cruelty, I'd need a much thicker skin and blister-proof soul before I'd be game to find out. Even those people he likes can be turned on without the slightest hesitation (Blake - after the failure of the takeover in Spacefall, bits of Redemption, the beginning of Trial; Cally - The Web, Children of Auron; Vila - Voice From the Past, Hostage, and quite a few of the jokes throughout get rather brutal; I *hate* "you may use your fingers" from Assassin). Might be fun to listen to, but I wouldn't care to be on the receiving end, meself. And as I've said, I don't think he'd like me at all...I'd be in the 'game, fair or otherwise' category (and this presumes us both living in a *safe* environment like mine. Move to his, and you also have never knowing whether he will risk himself for you, or you for himself, and at what point you *are* going to find out which it is ). Of course, anyone who thinks they *could* take the put-downs quite happily - or that Avon would be nicer to them - might feel differently. The fact that while living together, he would always look a hell of a lot prettier (in silver, black leather - yes, even the red leather) than me would have nothing to do with the matter, of course. To be honest, I don't think I could live comfortably with any of them. Of the two nice ones - Gan and Cally - he's *too* nice and a bit stolid, she's somewhat wet and humourless (this and everything that follows is as I see them, *of course*). They'd both annoy me very very quickly. You'd have to keep far too close an eye on Vilakins, and keep said eye open at all times; Blake is too stubborn, temperamental and arrogant (and would turn the house into a dumping place for lame dogs and other strays, human and otherwise, faster than I could say "but I'm allergic to..."). Then there's Dayna's irritating mixture of bloodthirstiness and bounciness (and she'd damn well better give up the music); Jenna's narrow-mindedness towards people who don't fit into ready-made pigeonholes, and her dubious ex-or-not-friends; Tarrant's exasperatingly endless team spirit, air of self-satisfaction and lack of common sense (hey, I don't have much either, so *two* of us would be a disaster in the making). And Soolin would scare me out of ten years' growth (and I don't *have* ten years to lose). They're *all* such damaged souls, really...even the nice ones. That's part of what makes them so interesting for me - and I do like nearly all of them, and acknowledge their strengths and virtues as readily as their faults - wonderful to watch, but rather less than comfortable to be around. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 04:04:13 PST From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon's friends (was Many, mant people) How many threads has this sp.. Message-ID: <20000121120413.87623.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Nina wrote: I'd give her 3 days, tops.> Hmmm...three days? I take it Avon was in a very very good mood (or a coma) for most of the first two. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 05:36:41 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon & Friends Message-ID: <388860E8.E2652825@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sally Manton wrote: > To be honest, I don't think I could live comfortably with any of them. Okay, but if you *had* to pick one? And no fair choosing Orac unless you agree to keep him switched on . Mistral -- "Who do you serve? And who do you trust?" --Galen, 'Crusade' ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 10:21:53 -0500 From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> To: "Blake's 7 (Lysator)" , Freedom City Subject: [B7L] Fab Cafe on January 29 Message-ID: <200001211022_MC2-95B8-1857@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit For (some of) those of you who can't get to Pages on February 12, or even for those who can, about half a dozen of us are planning to meet at the Fab Cafe (Portland Street, Manchester) on the evening of Saturday, January 29. We might get there by six. Or half past. Or seven. Probably earlier. Anyone who wants more details should probably get in touch with me or Ellie. Harriet ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 12:24:24 -0700 From: Helen Krummenacker To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V00 #18 Message-ID: <3888B268.31BC@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > So, fellow Lysters, if any of you ever see me at a con crawling around on > my > > hands and knees with my nose to the floor, I am not drunk out of my skull, > I > > am merely looking for Una. > > Neil, some of us crawling in the gutter, others are looking at the stars... > We'll see Neil, It all depends on whether you're saying, "The city is a wossname, woman..." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 12:34:49 -0700 From: Helen Krummenacker To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Mental health & Governments Message-ID: <3888B4D9.3044@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ellynne comments: > 3) during the > 60's and 70's there was a large number of people who thought the insane > were simply eccentric and/or nonconformists and it was only 'the system' > that abused them and institutionalized them. > Uh-uhn. I am referring to the great closing of institutions during the Reagan years, in the Eighties. > > 'The Way Back,' being written in the late 70's, still reflects this > attitude. It's not like a guy who thinks everyone is out to get him and > doesn't have a shred of evidence to support his claims could be _wrong_. > Well, how much fun would the show be if it turned out Blake was a pederast who was so disturbed at his own actions he went into a state of total denial and created a fantasy of being the leader of a rebellion against the evil government? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:17:40 +0000 (GMT) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List cc: Freedom City Subject: [B7L] models for sale Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'm selling the following items on behalf of a friend. Federation trooper - Comet miniatures, 2 inches high with a base added, assembled and painted. - 7 pounds plus postage. Federation pursuit ship, in scale with Comet Miniatures Liberator kit - scratch built - £20 plus postage. (There never was any official kit for a pursuit ship, so this is your only chance to own a pursuit ship unless you're a really keen model-maker yourself.) Federation trooper's helmet, full-sized replica, scratch-built and featured on TV, twice (Jonathan Ross Show & Pebble Mill) - 60 pounds plus postage. )I think the helmet represents particularly good value for money. It's a lovely replica and you couldn't get one made for you at anything like that price.) Federation officer's pistol, scratch-built (in aluminium and steel) - 40 pounds plus postage. I have photos of the helmet, ship and pistol which I'll e-mail to anyone who is interested. I'm not going to clog up the list by posting them here. (I may stick them on the web site if requested) Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.nas.com/~lknight ) Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 19:08:24 +0000 From: Steve Rogerson To: Lysator Subject: [B7L] Robot Wars Message-ID: <3888AEA2.CCA140C0@mcr1.poptel.org.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anyone see Robot Wars on BBC2 tonight? Someone had a robot called Orac's Revenge. It was crap and got stuffed. -- cheers Steve Rogerson http://homepages.poptel.org.uk/steve.rogerson "In my world, there are people in chains and you can ride them like ponies" The alternative Willow, Buffy the Vampire Slayer ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 19:09:38 -0000 From: "Alison Page" To: "lysator" Subject: [B7L] orac defeated Message-ID: <000d01bf6443$37125d00$ca8edec2@pre-installedco> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Did you see tonight's Robot Wars? One entrant was 'Orac's revenge' but alas, although suitably aggressive its engine wasn't quite powerful enough and it got shunted into the fire pit :-( Ironically I think the house robots on that show are made by the guy who made the Liberator Alison ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:02:36 -0700 From: Helen Krummenacker To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Avon's friends Message-ID: <3888BB5C.6401@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > ell, Judith *did* define her question as someone who > 'actually liked our favourite pain-in-the-neck' (as distinct > from just getting along with/being able to work with) and I > put in the 'and he liked' meself. Gan is an extraordinarily > tolerant man, and loyal to his team-mates, but...no, I don't > think he likes Avon much at if all as a person (not that I > can blame him...would even those of us who love Avon really > want to *live* with him???) And vice versa to a even lesser > degree - there's some responsibility, loyalty, even (on odd > moments, as in Avalon) forbearance on Avon's side - but real > liking does involve *some* thought about the other as an > individual personality - and Avon IMO rarely bothers to do > that with anyone. Maybe different people are defining like differently. I like almost everyone. I also, frequently, dislike them. Getting along can either mean tolerating someone you dislike. Or it could mean not caring at all (how can you spend *that much time with someone and *not* form an opinion). Or it could mean liking someone enough that, on the whole, they are okay. I like the people I work with. OTOH, I have virtually nothing in common with most of them. I am irritated by some of their habits. I have only once met with any of them for any recreation off company time, and at that, I only spent a small portion of the group trip with them. The original question was do they *like* him, not *are they friends*, which is another and more difficult question. I do not have any friends among my coworkers, by my definition of friendship. So there are several different questions we've been answering all from the same heading: 1. How many of his teammates liked Avon, as opposed to tolerating him in the interest of getting the job done? (That is how I interpreted the question). 2. Which crewmates liked him that he liked? 3. Who (or how many) would be Avon's friends? While I said that I believe that most of his teammate liked him (I put Jenna down as the exception... she has that look of barely tolerating him frequently), I don't believe most of them were friends with him. That I would limit to Blake, Vila, and Cally. At the same time I think there was mutual like (a more tenuous thing than friendship) between more of them. And I do think that he might have liked Jenna, a bit, even if she disliked him. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:07:39 -0700 From: Helen Krummenacker To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Avon's friends Message-ID: <3888BC8B.34EA@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > On Thu, 20 Jan 2000 12:26:48 PST "Sally Manton" > writes: > would even those of us who love Avon really > >want to *live* with him??? > > Well, if you mean 'live with' in the sense of a permanent, monogamous, > gold ring sort of 'live with' . . . . you knew the asnwer already, right? > > Ellynne > Whereas I would say... I would *not* want to live on the Liberator, with or without Avon on board (although better with). There are exactly 2 people in this world I feel I could enjoy being under the same roof with for any length of time-- well, 3 if you count my mother. But I wouldn't mind buying Avon a drink while he's enjoying Freedom City. Or go shopping with him! He has such *interesting* taste in clothes... Avon's friend, Avona ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 19:28:44 -0000 From: "Una McCormack" To: "Lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Robot Wars Message-ID: <011c01bf6445$bd943130$0d01a8c0@hedge> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve: > Anyone see Robot Wars on BBC2 tonight? Someone had a robot called Orac's > Revenge. It was crap and got stuffed. Alison: > Did you see tonight's Robot Wars? One entrant was 'Orac's revenge' but alas, > although suitably aggressive its engine wasn't quite powerful enough and it > got shunted into the fire pit :-( 'Robot Wars', huh? You connoisseurs of British television. Una ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 19:35:58 +0000 (GMT) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List cc: Freedom City Subject: [B7L] models for sale Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII The helmet and the model trooper went in less than an hour... The pursuit ship and pistol are still available as of 7.30pm... Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.nas.com/~lknight ) Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 20:00:29 -0000 From: "Alison Page" To: "b7" Subject: Re: Re [B7L] How to be Topp on the Liberatar Message-ID: <010301bf644a$50ba3000$ca8edec2@pre-installedco> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Now that really did make me laugh out loud, spot on Alison ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 19:57:46 -0000 From: "Alison Page" To: "Lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Robot Wars Message-ID: <010201bf644a$4f9cd920$ca8edec2@pre-installedco> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Una said - >'Robot Wars', huh? You connoisseurs of British television. It's just on because the kids like it you understand. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:21:02 -0700 From: Penny Dreadful To: "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Mental health & Governments Message-Id: <4.1.20000121124148.00979d80@mail.powersurfr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:59 AM 21/01/00 +0000, Alison Page wrote: >I'd go so far as to say that what was done to Blake (or Dayna) can't be >done, no matter how sophisticated technology gets, because the human mind is >both too strong and too delicate. It just breaks, before you can do anything >useful to it. The rest is victims faking it because they are scared, and I >don't blame them. What the B7 Future seems to have, that we don't, is some fairly practical means of implanting and/or deleting memories, which is entirely unlike 'brainwashing' as we know it today. So, they delete from Blake's brain all his memories of nasty things being done *to* him, but leave all the memories of nasty things *he* has done...maybe mentally airbrush in a bottle of Space-Whiskey in his hip pocket, make him truly believe his rebellious vandalism was unjustified. Get him to articulate this belief for the record. Then delete those memories before he starts noticing inconsistencies in them. Thereafter just make sure he keeps taking his Space-Prozac. -- For A Dread Time, Call Penny: http://members.tripod.com/~Penny_Dreadful/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 21:30:56 -0000 From: "Andrew Ellis" To: "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Mental health & Governments Message-ID: <00b501bf6458$e0423c00$abb901d5@leanet.futures.bt.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >>I'd go so far as to say that what was done to Blake (or Dayna) can't be >>done, no matter how sophisticated technology gets, because the human mind is >>both too strong and too delicate. It just breaks, before you can do anything >>useful to it. The rest is victims faking it because they are scared, and I >>don't blame them. > >What the B7 Future seems to have, that we don't, is some fairly practical >means of implanting and/or deleting memories, which is entirely unlike >'brainwashing' as we know it today. So, they delete from Blake's brain all >his memories of nasty things being done *to* him, but leave all the >memories of nasty things *he* has done... I always thought that the phrase used in the series was that his memories were blocked, and that because of his recent trauma, his brain was starting to work its way around around the block. Hence the need to frame him, perhaps using simple hypnotic techniques for the children. Planting memories I imagine would be reasonably easy, and is certainly not new to Sci Fi. Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 20:01:17 +0000 From: Julia Jones To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon & Friends Message-ID: In message <20000121115518.88955.qmail@hotmail.com>, Sally Manton writes > >They're *all* such damaged souls, really...even the nice ones. That's part >of what makes them so interesting for me - and I do like nearly all of them, >and acknowledge their strengths and virtues as readily as their faults - >wonderful to watch, but rather less than comfortable to be around. I think I'd find Avon the least difficult to get on with, but there's a reason for that, and no it isn't sex, it's (look away now, people of a nervous disposition) to do with Myers-Brigg... Of course, the sex aspect doesn't hurt:^) -- Julia Jones "Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!" The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 21:59:29 +0000 From: Julia Jones To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Mental health & Governments Message-ID: In message <20000119.225551.9134.0.Rilliara@juno.com>, Ellynne G. writes >'The Way Back,' being written in the late 70's, still reflects this >attitude. It's not like a guy who thinks everyone is out to get him and >doesn't have a shred of evidence to support his claims could be _wrong_. And the ample evidence the lawyer finds to support Blake's claims, once he goes to the trouble of actually looking for it, is merely a figment of the viewer's imagination. Doesn't have a shred of evidence, or isn't given the opportunity to present his evidence? -- Julia Jones "Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!" The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 21:41:25 +0000 From: Julia Jones To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Cc: lysator Subject: Re: [B7L] Mental health & Governments Message-ID: In message <001201bf63e5$8286dbc0$ca8edec2@pre-installedco>, Alison Page writes >I'd go so far as to say that what was done to Blake (or Dayna) can't be >done, no matter how sophisticated technology gets, because the human mind is >both too strong and too delicate. It just breaks, before you can do anything >useful to it. Except that a very, very primitive version is already being done. I looked up some references on New Scientist's website earlier today, and of course left them at work, so I'll have to do another search before I can quote chapter and verse. I was working from a vague memory of reading an article - try searching their site for "alien abduction" to bring up a couple of the relevant pages. The gist of it is that a neuroscientist (I think by the name of Michael Persinger, but I don't guarantee to have remembered it correctly) has been playing around with using magnetic fields to stimulate specific areas in the brain to fire in unusual patterns, and has been getting some very interesting results. He can reproduce certain hallucinations to order - hallucinations that fit very well with some of the experiences described by people who claim to have seen ghosts, angels, and aliens with unnatural desires. Only some people are susceptible to this, but you can accurately pick out who they are by examining their neural patterns with the equipment before you start feeding in new signals. The article I was after wasn't actually on the site, but he has apparently been getting interest from quarters he'd rather not be getting interest from - because some of his most recent work suggests the possibility of finer manipulation to produce other, more ...useful... hallucinations - or to reinforce an imposed memory so that it becomes real, *without* breaking the mind. Some of the links I followed provided very interesting food for thought. Well worthwhile for the fanfic writers as a source of ideas. -- Julia Jones "Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!" The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 21:02:49 +0000 From: Julia Jones To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Mental health & Governments Message-ID: Right, my fingers can manage a little typing, so I don't have to talk, avoid saying "um", and think all at the same time, always a difficult thing to do... In message <3886533D.35FD@jps.net>, Helen Krummenacker writes >Ok, so the UK hs apssed a law enabling people to be commited as mentally >ill against their wills on the basic of psychiatric assessment, >regardless of past criminal behavior. This isn't about people who are mentally ill and need treatment, but won't or are incapable of giving consent. They can be sectioned, always assuming there's a bed available in the local secure unit. The UK has its fair share of people who pleaded to be restrained because they were scared by their own behaviour, but only got a bed in the secure wing after they'd killed someone - but that's due to lack of funding, not to lack of legal means for compulsory restraint. The people I'm talking about are technically not mentally ill, and their psychiatric condition cannot be treated. The proposal is to allow people diagnosed as sociopathic to be locked up, purely on the grounds that they have been diagnosed as sociopathic. Not because that particular individual is clearly an immediate danger to the public, but because sociopaths *as* *a* *group* are a high risk group to let loose in society. There appears to be no requirement for anything other than a diagnosis and second opinion that the individual is sociopathic, and that this particular example of a sociopath should be locked up for the good of society. There is a good reason for this legislation. There are some truly frightening people out there, and this offers the only way to restrain them before they harm someone. They aren't treatable, they aren't necessarily even mentally ill in the usual sense, they aren't a danger to themselves, and therefore they can't be forcibly restrained or treated under the Mental Health Act. The legislation, if used correctly, will undoubtedly save a few lives, and a great deal of misery short of murder. However: a) It appears that most sociopaths never engage in criminal behaviour so extreme as to warrant this sort of draconian measure (either because they never encounter any reason to, or because they do but realise that they will be punished if caught, even though in their opinion there is nothing wrong with doing whatever they want to do). b) Sociopathy is easy to misdiagnose, either through confusion with other conditions, or through defining certain behaviour as sociopathy. Examples: An e-acquaintance of mine was so misdiagnosed. This item came to light when he was discussing on the newsgroup what was *actually* wrong with him - he has a syndrome related to, but milder than, autism. He has a lot of trouble with interpreting social cues in Real Life, and assorted problems as a result, and this resulted at one stage in the above diagnosis. (Interestingly, he has very good social skills on the net, better than many people, because here he doesn't have to try and process all the social cues most of us assimilate without even thinking about, he just has to look at the words. And words are *no* problem.) Read psychiatry texts from the fifties, and even the sixties, and you'll find that having an illegitimate child is considered evidence of psychopathy. Not surprising, really. Something *I* hadn't realised until I saw a tv programme a few years ago - as recently as just before WW2, girls were being institutionalised for having had under-age sex. Apparently a fifteen year old girl who wasn't a virgin and hadn't been raped was clearly insane and needed to be locked up, for life, to avoid embarrassment to her family. c) Some psychiatrists have a great deal of trouble admitting that they, or even another psychiatrist, have made an incorrect diagnosis. The Rosenthal (IIRC) experiments demonstrated this, in a truly terrifying manner. Once you're in an institution, it can be very hard to get out again, even if you've been wrongfully committed. From the experimental results, *especially* if you've been wrongfully committed. I do wonder how many people are going to end up in a locked ward who need not or should not be there. And after seeing some of the recent abuses by our own dear government (the last one, but then this one hasn't had much time yet), I wonder how many of them will have been knowingly put there. The last government wilfully and maliciously abused its power, and attempted to send innocent men to jail rather than admit to its ministers having broken the law. Fortunately one judge refused to accept a minister's assurances that it would endanger the security of the nation for certain papers to be placed in front of the court, and that the judge did not need to see the papers in private in order to decide for himself. >treatment by >electroshock therapy, a practice which I thought had been condemned as >both barbaric and useless several years ago. As someone's already pointed out, it's not useless, but should be considered a last resort. Unfortunately, the abuses of the past mean that it's now almost impossible to use it even on the small minority of patients who would benefit. An example of the pendulum swinging too far in the opposite direction. -- Julia Jones "Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!" The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 22:05:11 +0000 From: Julia Jones To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Mental health & Governments Message-ID: In message <4.1.20000121124148.00979d80@mail.powersurfr.com>, Penny Dreadful writes >So, they delete from Blake's brain all >his memories of nasty things being done *to* him, but leave all the >memories of nasty things *he* has done...maybe mentally airbrush in a >bottle of Space-Whiskey in his hip pocket, make him truly believe his >rebellious vandalism was unjustified. Ooh, nasty idea, I wanna nick it for a story... -- Julia Jones "Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!" The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 08:36:19 +1100 From: Kathryn Andersen To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Killer Message-ID: <20000122083619.A1991@welkin.apana.org.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Fri, Jan 21, 2000 at 09:18:33AM -0000, Godrich Stephen wrote: > >Susie Wright wrote: > >>As I was reading about "Killer" a thought struck me.... it aired in 1979 > >>and dealt with a plague. Was England aware of AIDS yet? > >Too early. The first case of AIDS in the US wasn't identified until 1981, > >and while others quickly followed, it wasn't recognized as infectious until > > >late 1982, nor was the scope of the epidemic clear in the early days. (I > >believe the HIV virus was isolated in 1983.) I don't have information on > >when the disease first appeared in the UK, but there certainly wasn't any > >awareness of an infectious "plague" as early as 1979. > >- Lisa > >-- > > Oooh, preminition. I could also be that rumours were flying around the > scientific community around 1979 about AIDS (or GRIDS as it was known before > the PC police got hold of it). The writer got inspiration to write about a > virus which there was no known cure. > > Could all just be coincidence though :) I am utterly *convinced* it was coincidence. AIDS isn't the only plague there has ever been, and tying everything in with AIDS demonstrates a historical myopia which is irritating, if not appalling. When did Terry Nation write "Survivors"? When did Pat Frank write "Alas Babylon"? When did Kate W-something write "Where Late The Sweet Birds Sang"? Not to mention all the other SF authors who've written about plagues and apocalypses. (grumble, grumble, grumble) -- _--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen / \ | http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat \_.--.*/ | #include "standard/disclaimer.h" v | ------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 22:15:09 +0000 (GMT) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List cc: Freedom City Subject: [B7L] models for sale Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Everything is now sold. Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.nas.com/~lknight ) Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 17:54:12 PST From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon & Friends Message-ID: <20000122015412.85652.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed After I wrote: Mistral wrote: .> Zen. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 20:03:21 -0700 From: "Ellynne G." To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Mental health & Governments Message-ID: <19990121.200323.8638.0.Rilliara@juno.com> On Fri, 21 Jan 2000 21:59:29 +0000 Julia Jones writes: >In message <20000119.225551.9134.0.Rilliara@juno.com>, Ellynne G. > writes >>'The Way Back,' being written in the late 70's, still reflects this >>attitude. It's not like a guy who thinks everyone is out to get him >and >>doesn't have a shred of evidence to support his claims could be >_wrong_. > >And the ample evidence the lawyer finds to support Blake's claims, >once >he goes to the trouble of actually looking for it, is merely a figment >of the viewer's imagination. > >Doesn't have a shred of evidence, or isn't given the opportunity to >present his evidence? OK, OK, I misphrased. In context of the show alone, Blake is obviously being set up, is innocent, etc. In context of stories from that time period dealing with insanity, the nut is never truly guilty (except in some cases where insanity is used to explain criminal acts. There tends to be a strong theme of 'innocent by reason of insanity' to many of those [killer goes through traumatic experience (usually a parent's fault) and develops 'problem]). My reading on the issue has been spotty, and I grant the Reagan years saw a lot of Draconian cuts, but I'm pretty sure the first article I read on it was from the 70's and that it made specific reference to the _reasons_ changes in insanity law were made. Even if there were facilities enough to house them (which, I agree, there aren't), many insane people don't qualify by many current laws in the U.S. which often require the person be an _immediate_ to themselves or others. There have been cases where doctors could swear in court an individual would be back to violent behavior in a matter of months without proper supervision and that this was what happened over and over again in the past--but they weren't a threat _now_, so they were released. Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V00 Issue #19 *************************************